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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    missing your point here. Where do you see that your salary continues if you are called up, in the amendment ?
    It's how I am interpreting 26(4). Maybe I'm wrong....
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    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    very definitely you do not get your salary.

    You do get paid same as PDF though, in accordance with regulations if called out on ATCP or permanent service its pension and MSA lol see R5 para 45
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    It's how I am interpreting 26(4). Maybe I'm wrong....
    That section means that you continue to accumulate seniority etc at your main employment while you are called up. For example if you were made redundant years after returning to your main employer, your redundancy payment would be calculated as if you had not broken service.

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    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates...2020-03-26/12/

    If anyone wants a read of the discussion on this at committee stage.

    (Oireachas.ie is a great tool I'm finding!)

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    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    I thought IMO would be literally on fire over this but its all very tumbleweeds today?!
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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  9. #31
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    ( Kildare St is a better reader the new oireachtas site is awful ) https://www.kildarestreet.com/debate...3-26a.212#g391


    Cathal Berry

    I move amendment No. 56:

    In page 25, between lines 19 and 20, to insert the following: “Interpretation In this Part, “Act of 1954” means the Defence Act 1954, as amended, extended and continued by subsequent enactments.”.
    This is a very straightforward amendment. It provides for job security for members of the Reserve Defence Force who may be called up on active service to deal with this emergency or any subsequent emergency. It is absolutely the norm internationally, all across the European Union. It is completely cost-neutral and does not jeopardise, or interfere with, any other provision in this Bill.

    We have heard very fine words about the Defence Forces in this Chamber today and on previous days, about the great job they do and how brave they are on the front line dealing with this crisis. This is a wonderful opportunity for us to provide tangible and practical help to those people on the front line and members of the Defence Forces would be extremely appreciative. Accordingly, I urge all Members present to support these amendments.

    Jack Chambers :

    I welcome Deputy Berry's amendment. In the last Dáil we had a lot of discussion about the Reserve Defence Force and the great difficulty caused by geographical displacement and recruiting Reserve members around the country. This will give a major signal shift to members of the Reserve, such that if they are required to serve, they will be able to retain their employment. The fact that there is a subtle threat in the current legislative framework undermines the Minister's power to ask someone to serve. It is important that they have job security and are supported in their employment through the legislative framework, as Deputy Berry's amendment seeks.

    Paul Kehoe:

    I thank Deputies Berry and Chambers for raising this very important issue. The Government very much appreciates the service of the members of the Reserve Defence Force, RDF, which comprises the First Line Reserve, the Army Reserve and the Naval Service Reserve, and fully recognises the important role that the three elements of the Reserve Defence Force play in contributing to Ireland's defence capability. The Bill makes provisions for the enlistment of formerly enlisted personnel and is not related to the Reserve Defence Force or the calling out of the RDF. This was previously sought by way of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2020, which fell due to the dissolution of the Thirty-second Dáil. The proposal in the Bill will widen the net of potential applicants for enlistment, thereby helping to address a shortfall in numbers and in skill sets, where there are some challenges. Re-enlistment may be for between six months and three years. The potential to address these shortfalls will support the Defence Forces' response to Covid-19 and more generally.

    The amendments proposed by Deputies Berry and Naughten go beyond the scope of the Bill and relate to employment protection for members of the Reserve. I do not have any issue with the principle of what the Deputies propose. It is something that officials in the Department of Defence have been working on for quite some time. Given the complexities and implications of such a measure, it requires further consideration and I think that it should be revisited. This Bill is not the place for such a provision. It needs further consultation. I understand that members of the Reserve Defence Force have concerns that, should they be called out on a mandatory basis under permanent service or in aid to civil power, their employment status should be protected. There are currently no plans for a general call of the Reserve. My Department is liaising closely with the Defence Forces, especially with the Chief of Staff and the general officers commanding each brigade, about the likely requirements of the Reserve Defence Force as the situation continues to unfold.

    Some reservists who have skills which are required in the Covid-19 response whose personal circumstances allow them to do so are already undertaking certain tasks on a voluntary basis. Many employers are likely to be very supportive of reservists participating in the Covid-19 response, should their services be required. I assure Deputies that I remain very committed to those who volunteer their service to the State now and at any other time. I cannot accept the amendments but I would like, at a later stage, to be able to pass such legislation. We need wider consultation, specifically with the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation. We are often critical here about not having consultation. I do not believe that rushing such an amendment through the House would be the right thing to do on this occasion.

    I do not have much more to add. If somebody told us two months ago that an international pandemic would be taking place, we would not have believed them. We have no idea what will happen in two months' time. There is a possibility that members of the Reserve Defence Force will be called up on active service and I think that, at the very least, they deserve to have their civilian jobs available to them when they finish their term of service. It is a very reasonable amendment and it is the very least that our brave Defence Forces personnel deserve. I will press the amendment.




    Chris Andrews, Cathal Berry, John Brady, James Browne, Mary Butler, Jack Chambers, Catherine Connolly, Barry Cowen, Cormac Devlin, Pearse Doherty, Paul Donnelly, Stephen Donnelly, Francis Noel Duffy, Dessie Ellis, Noel Grealish, Marian Harkin, Neasa Hourigan, Claire Kerrane, Micheál Martin, Mattie McGrath, Michael McGrath, Imelda Munster, Jennifer Murnane O'Connor, Paul Murphy, Gerald Nash, Cian O'Callaghan, Jim O'Callaghan, Richard O'Donoghue, Roderic O'Gorman, Louise O'Reilly, Eoin Ó Broin, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Eamon Ryan, Róisín Shortall, Bríd Smith, Duncan Smith, Peadar Tóibín, Robert Troy, Mark Ward.

    Níl
    Peter Burke, Paschal Donohoe, Bernard Durkan, Damien English, Charles Flanagan, Simon Harris, Heather Humphreys, Paul Kehoe, Josepha Madigan, Kieran O'Donnell, Neale Richmond.

    Amendment declared carried.
    Might I add thanks to Cathal Berry and Denis Naughten for this and shame on Kehoe for stating that consultation with the other ministries was required. Since I became a member in 1989 or whenever it was we have been asking for this and the Industry minister etc have pushed back and said " defence problem". Shame.

    11 TDs voted against, all FG.
    Last edited by trellheim; 27th March 2020 at 09:44.
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  11. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    I thought IMO would be literally on fire over this but its all very tumbleweeds today?!
    Is it a case of be careful what you wish for, it might come true. Now we can be called but may take a pay cut as a result (those that are still working that is). Should this have included an arrangement to protect our overall salary. I know RDFRA have been working on this for some time ( maybe not this one) but this one it's in for now.

  12. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    Is it a case of be careful what you wish for, it might come true. Now we can be called but may take a pay cut as a result (those that are still working that is). Should this have included an arrangement to protect our overall salary. I know RDFRA have been working on this for some time ( maybe not this one) but this one it's in for now.
    That was always the case. With this amendment it a least means we can't be fired as well.

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  14. #34
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    “Provisions governing return of reservists to employment
    26. (1) Where a member of the Reserve Defence Force as defined in the Act of 1954, (in this section referred to as the “reservist”) is called out on permanent service or in aid to the civil power, under the provisions of the Act of 1954, and such reservist was, at the time he or she was so called out, employed by another person (in this section referred to as the “former employer”) the following provisions shall apply:
    (a) on the expiry of the period during which the reservist was absent from work while called out on such permanent service or in aid to the civil power, the reservist shall be entitled to return to work as soon as reasonably practicable —
    (i) with the employer with whom he or she was working immediately before the start of that period or, where during the reservist’s absence from work there was a change of ownership of the undertaking in which he or she was employed immediately before her or his absence, with the owner (in this section referred to as the “successor”) of the undertaking at the expiry of the period of the absence,
    (ii) in the job which the reservist held immediately before the start of that period, and
    (iii) under the contract of employment under which the reservist was employed immediately before the start of that period, or, where a change of ownership such as is referred to in subparagraph (i) has occurred, under a contract of employment with the successor which is identical to the contract under which the reservist was employed immediately before the start of that period and (in either case) under terms and conditions —
    (I) not less favourable than those that would have been applicable to the reservist, and
    (II) that incorporate any improvement to the terms or conditions of employment to which the reservist would have been entitled,
    if he or she had not been so absent from work.
    (2) Where a reservist is entitled to return to work in accordance with subsection (1) but it is not reasonably practicable for the employer or the successor to permit the reservist to return to work in accordance with that subsection, the reservist shall, subject to provisions of this section, be entitled to be offered by the employer, the successor or an associated employer suitable alternative work under a new contract of employment.
    (3) Work under a new contract of employment constitutes suitable alternative work for the purposes of this section if —
    (a) the work required to be done under the contract is of a kind which is suitable in relation to the reservist concerned and appropriate for the reservist to do in the circumstances, and
    (b) the terms or conditions of the contract —
    (i) relating to the place where the work under it is required to be done, the capacity in which the reservist concerned is to be employed and any other terms or conditions of employment are not less favourable to the reservist than those of his or her contract of employment immediately before the start of the period of absence from work while on protective leave, and
    (ii) incorporate any improvement to the terms or conditions of employment to which the reservist would have been entitled if he or she had not been so absent from work during that period.
    (4) During a period of absence from work by a reservist who is called up on such permanent service or in aid to the civil power, the reservist shall be deemed to have been in employment of the employer or successor and, accordingly, while so absent, the reservist shall be treated as if he or she had not been so absent and such absence shall not affect any right, whether conferred by statute, contract or otherwise, and related to the reservist’s employment.
    (5) Entitlement to return to work in accordance with subsection (1) or to be offered suitable alternative work under subsection (2) shall be subject to a reservist who has been absent from work as a result of being called out on permanent service or in aid to the civil power having, as soon as reasonably practicable, notified in writing (or caused to be so notified) the employer or, where the reservist is aware of a change of ownership of the undertaking concerned, the successor or his or her intention to return to work and the date on which he or she expects to return to work.
    (6) Where, because of an interruption or cessation of work at a reservist’s place of employment, existing on the date specified in a notification under subsection (4) given by the reservist, it is unreasonable to expect the reservist to return to work on the date specified in the notification, the reservist may return to work instead when work resumes at the place of employment after the interruption or cessation, or as soon as reasonably practicable after such resumption.”.
    You have to taken back on at the same (or if improved during absence) terms & conditions (that would include (civilian) salary/wages)

    You will not be paid the difference in your civilian and DF wages
    Last edited by DeV; 27th March 2020 at 10:36.

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  16. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    You have to taken back on at the same (or if improved during absence) terms & conditions (that would include (civilian) salary/wages)

    You will not be paid the difference in your civilian and DF wages
    Sure that would take greater analysis being honest. I could see why legislation on that area would ideally not be rushed.

    Depending on the length of time of a potential permanent service period, the numbers called up and the differences in pay - the cost could be significant. It would need to be budgeted for surely.

    We have RDF personnel on significant salaries - 60k, 70k and even 100k plus that are 3* Privates.

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  18. #36
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    Sure that would take greater analysis being honest. I could see why legislation on that area would ideally not be rushed.

    Depending on the length of time of a potential permanent service period, the numbers called up and the differences in pay - the cost could be significant. It would need to be budgeted for surely.

    We have RDF personnel on significant salaries - 60k, 70k and even 100k plus that are 3* Privates.
    And those people have been happy as Larry up now to take part in RDF activities despite the pay Differential. Did they think that a callout would never,ever happen? Did they give the pay differential any thought before they signed up? What are we saying here? That if a RDF Pte Gets called up they should be paid more than a PDF Pte on the same point of the Payscale? Or even more than a PDF Pte at the top point of the scale?? That would go down well. Not exactly conducive to unit cohesion.

    Don't get me wrong I see the issue from both sides but the bottom line is that no body put a gun to the reservists head and told them sign up. They knew what they were getting into and what it COULD mean.Or at least the should know. As for the legislation. About F***ing time.Delighted for the RDF and fair play to CB and all the others who proposed and carried it.
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  20. #37
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    We have never had a salary protection scheme. We have had from 1940-1954 broadly what was passed last night. THAT SAID after Covid this will likely be repealed as it doesn't amend the Defence Act.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

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    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    If your currently earning €60k in your civi employment and the reserve is called up fulltime you earn the pay of your rank ie Cpl €512 pw vs over 1000k pw, so it's a loss.
    Basically if you earn more in your civilian employment you lose.

    Someone please tell me that I'm wrong.
    Once you can get your old job back after, that's the sacrifice most are willing to make. Up to now, you could be fired from your job because you were called up on active duty by the state.
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  23. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by morpheus View Post
    I thought IMO would be literally on fire over this but its all very tumbleweeds today?!
    People are working from home, and the sun is shining. This impacts greatly on IMO productivity....
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  25. #40
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    Also - it DOESNT amend the DF act - thats the sad part because the Exers coming back amendment DID amend the DF act.
    "The department" will sunset the sh*t out of this
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  26. #41
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Can't say this loudly enough

    ONLY APPLIES TO ATCP AND PERMANENT CALLOUT ... <<<< NEITHER OF WHICH IS CURRENTLY IN-PLAY. Read Defence Act Sections 86-92

    If you volunteer for standard mandays YOU STILL HAVE NO PROTECTION .


    Where a member of the Reserve Defence Force as defined in the Act of 1954, (in this
    section referred to as the “reservist”) is called out on permanent service or in aid to
    the civil power, under the provisions of the Act of 1954,
    ^^^^^^^^^ quote from the bill ^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Last edited by trellheim; 27th March 2020 at 11:57.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  28. #42
    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    forgive my ignorance, but is this why its not amending the defence act?
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

  29. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    And those people have been happy as Larry up now to take part in RDF activities despite the pay Differential. Did they think that a callout would never,ever happen? Did they give the pay differential any thought before they signed up? What are we saying here? That if a RDF Pte Gets called up they should be paid more than a PDF Pte on the same point of the Payscale? Or even more than a PDF Pte at the top point of the scale?? That would go down well. Not exactly conducive to unit cohesion.

    Don't get me wrong I see the issue from both sides but the bottom line is that no body put a gun to the reservists head and told them sign up. They knew what they were getting into and what it COULD mean.Or at least the should know. As for the legislation. About F***ing time.Delighted for the RDF and fair play to CB and all the others who proposed and carried it.
    I'm not suggesting that either approach is necessarily right or wrong. There are costs and benefits on both sides. The UK provides full salary protection where I believe in the US it is limited to those in federal employment. It's apples and oranges really.

    I've read fairly widely about the US military and how they deal with their reservists and from what I've seen, they ranks held attune more closely to that person's socio-economic position in society. Privates will primarily be young and college aged. NCOs will be older and further on in their civilian employment and officers will tend to come a background where their civilian employment pays well. The US military barrier that requires a four year degree for commissioning in most cases solidifies these divides. Pay received in the military when activated more broadly matches what they'd receive in their civilian employments. Service members no doubt take financial hits for the good of their country in their minds. If they can't afford to stay in, they get out. Potential for active duty is ever present for US reservists.

    The UK has salary protection as in their situation, its unlikely that they'd be able to maintain a viable reserve without it. I can't speak for unit cohesion and friction but there must have been hundreds of cases over the last 15-20 years where reservists deployed to sandy places getting paid far more out of the public purse than the regular beside them. Horses for courses.

    Ireland's situation is different again and neither may be a good fit. Different scenarios are possible. Here are three (and there are many more) without making any changes.

    - RDF member recently unemployed. Activation provides vital income for their family in a challenging time.
    - RDF member made active. Pay greatly reduced and unable to pay bills and mortgage at current standard of living.
    - My current scenario admittedly. I'd probably get paid by both the RDF and my employer even if active for a few months. Just the nature and size of my employer. Even more unfair again as I'd most likely be double paid in a time of national crisis.

    Something that would need to be debated thoroughly if ever legislated for even in part.

  30. #44
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    The PS worker has the best deal, in my opinion. Special leave to attend annual training (no call-out required). Leave with partial pay.
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    Some private sector employers offer it do. My employer gives 10 days 'military leave' annually. Full pay.

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    Space Lord of Terra morpheus's Avatar
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    I get 5 days annual leave extra on the strength of a letter requesting my attendance at a course of full time training.
    "He is an enemy officer taken in battle and entitled to fair treatment."
    "No, sir. He's a sergeant, and they don't deserve no respect at all, sir. I should know. They're cunning and artful, if they're any good. I wouldn't mind if he was an officer, sir. But sergeants are clever."

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    Hey guys its very simple. If you sign up knowing that you will take a big hit financially if called out then family comes first and the choice is very simple.

    Don't sign up in the first place or suck it up in the second. If you pray for rain you can't complain about the mud.
    "105,000 dead. 40,000,000 unemployed. Police murdering African-Americans. You’ve completed you’re mission. You’ve made America great. Now get the f**k out."

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  36. #48
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    IMO is certainly not quite today. Salary protection and amendment to covid-19 emergency legislation has us in discussions.

  37. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Hey guys its very simple. If you sign up knowing that you will take a big hit financially if called out then family comes first and the choice is very simple.

    Don't sign up in the first place or suck it up in the second. If you pray for rain you can't complain about the mud.
    Couldn't agree more.

    I still think it's an interesting discussion though!

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    Well, at the moment I’d have thought that everyone is the Reserves is either:

    1. In an essential occupation and therefore should be exempt from call-up as a “reserved” occupation (no pun intended) and already doing a vital job

    Or

    2. Sitting at home scratching their bollix (or whatever) and looking at Netflix, therefore available for mobilisation at little inconvenience to either themselves or their employer.

    Is that a reasonable summary?
    Last edited by Flamingo; 27th March 2020 at 20:17.
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