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  1. #1
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    Military Medical Facilities

    Quote Originally Posted by Irish View Post
    Anyone care to answer?
    Except for specialists , at all levels, most will be placed to fill shortages, with a lean towards filling some vacancies in a candidates home unit, if they are from a garrison townland, otherwise it is potluck. My main concern right now is, where are our Medical Corps and their expertise in setting up major Field Hospitals ? Getting stuff from Asia after the stable doors were slammed, gives me the impression that the AMC may be a paper Tiger. We have a National Security Document and normally, hazards to be prepared for are, Diseases and natural disasters. What does that mean practically or is it also a paper exercise that has succumbed to frugality. It seems the cupboards were empty, with no reserve, of equipment or personnel. I see the BA are outfitting Field type Hospitals in the UK for up to 4000 beds each.

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    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    That is because while we identified risks during the risk assessment phase our default stance in this country is the likelihood of occurrence is low which usually translate it doing nothing. This is not unique to government circles, I have seen it time and time again in business

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    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    No forward planning for contingencies.

    Prime example.The Dept allowing the DF strength to be run down to almost ineffective levels.
    Infantry Corps - An Lámh Comhrac


    "Let us be clear about three facts:First of all.All battles and all wars are won in the end by the Infantryman.Secondly the Infantryman bears the brunt of the fighting,his casualties are heavier and he suffers greater extremes of fatigue and discomfort than the other arms.Thirdly,the art of the Infantryman is less stereotyped and harder to acquire than that of any other arm".
    -- Field Marshall Earl Wavell.1948

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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    No forward planning for contingencies.

    Prime example.The Dept allowing the DF strength to be run down to almost ineffective levels.
    The current battle is being fought by our health care workers. They are inadequately equipped as some 23% of infected casualties are health care staffs. The comparative figure for Italy is 7.5% and Spain is 14.5%. The rush to re-equip is an example of widespread frugality and general poor minded notions of those charged by Constitution to run our country. Every time the unusual crops up we are left to pay the price . It's time a process was put in place to establish the chain of responsibility and set norms for dealing with diseases and disasters. If international best practice sets a certain amount of ICU beds per 100,000 of population then we MUST comply with that and so on with amounts of normal use Hospital beds. I would still like to know , where is the AMC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    That is because while we identified risks during the risk assessment phase our default stance in this country is the likelihood of occurrence is low which usually translate it doing nothing. This is not unique to government circles, I have seen it time and time again in business
    And this show that most do not use a proper risk matrix, for this pandemic or any other national security threat.
    On one axis is the probability and this can be low but there is the other axis and that is the more important one and that is the consequence severity axis.
    If some which is highly unlikely does occur and it will have a major consequence then it has to be planned for.
    Only when something is low probability and low severity then nothing needs to be done. This goes for business as well as for government

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    .... I would still like to know , where is the AMC.
    Refer to post #6 above...
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    Refer to post #6 above...
    Indeed, and we should be experts in Field Hospital construction and contagion medicine . The Defence Forces were allowed drift in to an organisation of convenience for Government/Political tasks and ideology. We are naked in the face of the modern international threats. What happens now--same old, same old.

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    It is not just the DF that needs to be better supported, the DoD is also responsible for Civil Defence. Their role and expertise is often overlooked but they have a major role in this. They provide many ambulances and specialist to tackle what is a civil threat. But like the rest of the DoD charges they too have to conform to the what is the minimum we can get away with approach of the DoD. Today we have a viral pandemic, but what would happen if one day Sellafield exploded? Would we have the decontamination capacity or mobile hospitals to deal with it? No.

    A start would be to see how the link between the Civil Defence and the army's Medical & Engineering corps can be strengthen

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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    It is not just the DF that needs to be better supported, the DoD is also responsible for Civil Defence. Their role and expertise is often overlooked but they have a major role in this. They provide many ambulances and specialist to tackle what is a civil threat. But like the rest of the DoD charges they too have to conform to the what is the minimum we can get away with approach of the DoD. Today we have a viral pandemic, but what would happen if one day Sellafield exploded? Would we have the decontamination capacity or mobile hospitals to deal with it? No.

    A start would be to see how the link between the Civil Defence and the army's Medical & Engineering corps can be strengthen
    I agree, but the pity is that those who know how to set up Field type hospitals. and probably underwent courses on the matter, are not asked for their opinions or input. There is a paper from Medical gurus at Bricknell setting out a full 200 bed hospital on a greenfield site. In a surge situation they also recommend a Whole Hospital Information System to cut down on paper work, it's not yet in the british system but is available in US Field Hospitals (WHIS). There is too much spin in the offing of a politically defensive nature, I heard one JM saying this was a one in a hundred year event, and of course you can't plan for that?? If we continue with a just in time philosophy we will be frequently up to our chins in water, disease, or nuclear fallout. Even the Scouts say be prepared.

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  18. #10
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    How many once in a hundred year events have we had in the last 10, 20, 30 years? Between snow, storms, floods and pandemics?
    Scary thing is it's much more frequnt we have social upheaval, yet our forces are not prepared for that either. Invest now to prepare for the unlikelyhood.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    How many once in a hundred year events have we had in the last 10, 20, 30 years? Between snow, storms, floods and pandemics?
    Scary thing is it's much more frequnt we have social upheaval, yet our forces are not prepared for that either. Invest now to prepare for the unlikelyhood.
    Exactly. If your hazard is a distant event but could wipe out your population or economy then plan and prepare. World events are not neutral or selective. The irony is that NGO's and Government agencies know that hazards facing us all include Natural disasters and Diseases. We also need to consider manufacturing PPE, using our clothing and chemical/distilling industries, and create a new trade, also for export.

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  22. #12
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    There is a paper from Medical gurus at Bricknell setting out a full 200 bed hospital on a greenfield site. In a surge situation they also recommend a Whole Hospital Information System to cut down on paper work, it's not yet in the british system but is available in US Field Hospitals (WHIS)
    The army don't have the 'trades to run a hospital of this magnitude as the DF have piggy backed on the HSE for all their medical cover for years and with the DF running at under 8000 spread over the country there will never been the staff or the funding to do so.

    This pandemic is being led by Respiratory specialists and Anaesthologists due to the nature of the treatment. There isn't and over flow of these available , so diverting funds to acquire and set up Army Field hospitals is a non runner.

    The DF in a support mode through ambulances, testing and Logs is what is needed . If the DF doctors can be incorporated into the HSE for the duration, all the better.
    Time for another break I think......

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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The army don't have the 'trades to run a hospital of this magnitude as the DF have piggy backed on the HSE for all their medical cover for years and with the DF running at under 8000 spread over the country there will never been the staff or the funding to do so.

    This pandemic is being led by Respiratory specialists and Anaesthologists due to the nature of the treatment. There isn't and over flow of these available , so diverting funds to acquire and set up Army Field hospitals is a non runner.

    The DF in a support mode through ambulances, testing and Logs is what is needed . If the DF doctors can be incorporated into the HSE for the duration, all the better.
    To be fair, no peacetime army needs a large medical footprint, a few orthopaedic surgeons and GP’s could cover 90% of the work, as one is dealing with a workforce that is significantly fitter than the average population, and indeed chosen as such.

    The US and the U.K. (both significantly larger than Ireland in terms of population and Armed Forces) rely on mobilisation of suitably trained professional reservists to staff their medical services in wartime- something that would be counterproductive at the moment.

    This is not to say that having the ability to deploy is unnecessary - I would say the knowledge and ability is vital, even if the actual staff manning it are drawn from civil defence and other sources, rather than being “green”.

    Look at the Italian army - their medical service is provided by the Order of Malta.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  26. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The army don't have the 'trades to run a hospital of this magnitude as the DF have piggy backed on the HSE for all their medical cover for years and with the DF running at under 8000 spread over the country there will never been the staff or the funding to do so.

    This pandemic is being led by Respiratory specialists and Anaesthologists due to the nature of the treatment. There isn't and over flow of these available , so diverting funds to acquire and set up Army Field hospitals is a non runner.

    The DF in a support mode through ambulances, testing and Logs is what is needed . If the DF doctors can be incorporated into the HSE for the duration, all the better.
    The idea would be to construct rather than also man. The spare hospitals would allow normal sick or convalescents to be transferred and cared for in a non-infectious building (Covid free), leaving Main hospitals continue treating the Covid positives. Manning can be augmented by Civil medical organisations and grounded cabin crews from our airlines etc.

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  28. #15
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    We are in panic mode at the moment "fire fighting" the pandemic as best we (and others) can. Like many others countries we were not prepared for this and that is what has to change. China was able to mobilise its massive industrial base to tackle the crisis. Those temporary hospitals they built were only possible as they had the capacity to do so. As a small nation we will never have that industrial capacity so we need to start planning and investing in the future once the panic phase is over.

    The WHO had been running simulations since 2016 with Virus X (based on SARS) , a potential world wide pandemic to see how it would spread and what would need to be done. Did anyone do anything? When late last year we all saw the outbreak in Wuhan did anyone start preparing? Sticking the head in the sand and saying "ah it is a 100 year event" should not be what comes out of this.

  29. #16
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Exactly. If your hazard is a distant event but could wipe out your population or economy then plan and prepare. World events are not neutral or selective. The irony is that NGO's and Government agencies know that hazards facing us all include Natural disasters and Diseases. We also need to consider manufacturing PPE, using our clothing and chemical/distilling industries, and create a new trade, also for export.
    We currently make 50% of the ventilators used in acute hospitals in the world, that doesn’t mean we can keep the lions share!
    The only way to guarantee that is to enter expensive loss making contracts that is State supports and that (outside of an emergency) isn’t possible

    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The idea would be to construct rather than also man. The spare hospitals would allow normal sick or convalescents to be transferred and cared for in a non-infectious building (Covid free), leaving Main hospitals continue treating the Covid positives. Manning can be augmented by Civil medical organisations and grounded cabin crews from our airlines etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    The army don't have the 'trades to run a hospital of this magnitude as the DF have piggy backed on the HSE for all their medical cover for years and with the DF running at under 8000 spread over the country there will never been the staff or the funding to do so.

    This pandemic is being led by Respiratory specialists and Anaesthologists due to the nature of the treatment. There isn't and over flow of these available , so diverting funds to acquire and set up Army Field hospitals is a non runner.

    The DF in a support mode through ambulances, testing and Logs is what is needed . If the DF doctors can be incorporated into the HSE for the duration, all the better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    To be fair, no peacetime army needs a large medical footprint, a few orthopaedic surgeons and GP’s could cover 90% of the work, as one is dealing with a workforce that is significantly fitter than the average population, and indeed chosen as such.

    The US and the U.K. (both significantly larger than Ireland in terms of population and Armed Forces) rely on mobilisation of suitably trained professional reservists to staff their medical services in wartime- something that would be counterproductive at the moment.

    This is not to say that having the ability to deploy is unnecessary - I would say the knowledge and ability is vital, even if the actual staff manning it are drawn from civil defence and other sources, rather than being “green”.
    And there in is a major issue

    The military needs the capacity to be able to deploy, establish and man a Fd Hospital. This really has to be Role 2 minimum (really role 2 and 3). The major issue is that it could man it possibly but they need to be people who are dealing with major trauma casualties on a weekly basis, there are a few possible ways of the DF doing that:
    (a) the RDF (who will be pulled from HSE staff and therefore unavailable most of the time and already over worked)
    (b) semi-permanently embed PDF personnel in HSE (what happens HSE when they are required, not available for DF tasks)
    (c) attach (few shifts a week) PDF personnel in HSE (what happens HSE when they are required, lesser degree of exposure to trauma and less availability for DF tasks)
    (d) have it DF only but deploy regularly (extremely regularly) with UN, Irish Aid etc etc

    The DF currently have to send paramedics to HSE to retain sufficient patient contact to retain currency and that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

    Anything can be a Fd Hospital a tent, a ship, an exhibition hall (cleaners, engineers, etc required) - if it doesn’t have medical personnel and equipment it isn’t a Fd Hospital!

    The DF had one that was based on expanding 20ft containers, it was role 1 due to the manning.




    Look at the Italian army - their medical service is provided by the Order of Malta.
    You sure about that?

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  31. #17
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    You sure about that?
    Corpo speciale volontario ausiliario dell'Esercito Italiano dell'Associazione dei cavalieri italiani del Sovrano militare Ordine di Malta, Corpo Militare EI-SMOM

    It is a voluntary auxiliary corps that provides medical staff for the Italian Army

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  33. #18
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The idea would be to construct rather than also man. The spare hospitals would allow normal sick or convalescents to be transferred and cared for in a non-infectious building (Covid free), leaving Main hospitals continue treating the Covid positives. Manning can be augmented by Civil medical organisations and grounded cabin crews from our airlines etc.
    But again who is to care for them given we don't have enough professionals in front line posts as it is. The 'normal' sick are again of age group in which 90% are over 70 years old and require specialist care whether it be GEMs nursing, Occupational therapy , Physios , Pharmacists and nutritionists, without having any support staff in place to ensure the supports are in place to keep it all running. The health Service as it is has ground to a halt in preparation for the 'surge' Maternity services and oncology are the only things running half normally

    The hospital system and its supports need consolidation and not off on wild goose chases experimenting with non options we know absolutely nothing about.

    People mention shortages of PPE, I'd be more concerned about the shortage of Portable bottled oxygen in 'CD' size becuase of the amount of cylinders removed from hospitals by people for their own use leaving an acute shortage of this size in the country....the cylinders are out there... can we have them back please to have them refilled?

    The amount of high value PPE that walked out the doors of hospitals because staff wanted to protect them selves at home!... I know of a hospital where 200 'duck bill' type FFP3 masks were issued on Friday, non left on monday and no patient of the type requiring this type of mask presented....

    First aiders, community responders are just that, not equipped by any means to deal with people who will be / are very sick. To expect them to do other than their title suggest is unfair and they are needed in those roles as well.

    If the surge happens , when the current support staff are wiped out , its the people to clean wards , wash and feed patients, porters, chefs,supplies people we are going to need .

    We saw it in SIPTUs strike last year, you can have all the nurses and doctors you like, without the support staff , hospitals cannot function.

    Back to field hospitals, you can't do it in days, it takes years to get it right, we haven't the luxury of that time....and the DF are a limited force, 125,000 people working in the HSE......with large portions of them now redeployed to simply supporting hospitals.. the DF is less than 8000 people all ranks, without any real hospital experience behind them bar Paramedics.

    Reality please.
    Time for another break I think......

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  35. #19
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    There’s much more to a field hospital than a building with a few beds, Dr’s and nurses. The whole logistics of equipment, supplies, feeding patients and staff, water, sanitation, admission, laboratories, power, auxiliary staff, waste disposal (both ordinary and hazardous), mortuary services, (the list can go on) is not something that can be designed in five minutes on the back of a fag packet.

    In a way, having the people to man it is the easy bit.

    The army/civil defence would be ideally placed to plan and provide all the services needed to set up the facility.
    Last edited by Flamingo; 31st March 2020 at 20:30.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  37. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The idea would be to construct rather than also man. The spare hospitals would allow normal sick or convalescents to be transferred and cared for in a non-infectious building (Covid free), leaving Main hospitals continue treating the Covid positives. Manning can be augmented by Civil medical organisations and grounded cabin crews from our airlines etc.
    The current plan in most places seems to be to use the field hospitals for the Covid-19 cases, keeping the ordinary hospitals clean. This would make sense, keep the dirty cases together and provide the facilities they need there, while having the specialist facilities needed by the “ordinary” patients still available.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  38. #21
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Just a couple of things

    (
    a) the RDF (who will be pulled from HSE staff and therefore unavailable most of the time and already over worked)
    In emergency such as this , they wouldn't be released for RDF service

    semi-permanently embed PDF personnel in HSE
    No benefit as the training regime and requalification within a hospital setting would be rendered null and void unless they were permanently based in a hospital setting, even in the most basic roles. use it or lose it scenario. To work simply as a porter would take a week of very simple qualifications, hand hygiene, standard precautions, working with gases, patient handling, TMVA, fire training, Sharps, Spinal Lifting, Waste Management etc. And thats if the resources are available to train them as the HSE have enough difficulty getting access to training the selves.

    Soldiers train to be soldiers and a few specialize in some hospital functions, The HSE is not a training facility for the Army but a live environment where the people are there for the long haul and live in a ever changing environment. Some would thrive in it, but if thats what they want, why did they become soldiers.
    Time for another break I think......

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    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Corpo speciale volontario ausiliario dell'Esercito Italiano dell'Associazione dei cavalieri italiani del Sovrano militare Ordine di Malta, Corpo Militare EI-SMOM

    It is a voluntary auxiliary corps that provides medical staff for the Italian Army
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sove...Order_of_Malta

    Military Corps Edit


    Logotype of the Military Corps of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta

    Military Corps of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, ACISMOM, in parade during Festa della Repubblica in Rome (2007)
    The Order states that it was the hospitaller role that enabled the Order to survive the end of the crusading era; nonetheless, it retains its military title and traditions.

    On 26 March 1876, the Association of the Italian Knights of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (Associazione dei cavalieri italiani del sovrano militare ordine di Malta, ACISMOM) reformed the Order's military to a modern military unit of the era. This unit provided medical support to the Italian Army and on 9 April 1909 the military corps officially became a special auxiliary volunteer corps of the Italian Army under the name Corpo Militare dell'Esercito dell'ACISMOM (Army Military Corps of the ACISMOM), wearing Italian uniforms.[82] Since then the Military Corps have operated with the Italian Army both in wartime and peacetime in medical or paramedical military functions, and in ceremonial functions for the Order, such as standing guard around the coffins of high officers of the Order before and during funeral rites.[83]

    I believe that it is a unique case in the world that a unit of the army of one country is supervised by a body of another sovereign country. Just think that whenever our staff (medical officers mainly) is engaged in a military mission abroad, there is the flag of the Order flying below the Italian flag.

    —?Fausto Solaro del Borgo, President of the Italian Association of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, stated in a speech given in London in November 2007.[82]
    Air force Edit

    Roundel of the air force of the Sovereign Military Order of Malta

    SMOM Savoia-Marchetti SM.82 at the Italian Air Force Museum
    In 1947, after the post-World War II peace treaty forbade Italy to own or operate bomber aircraft and only operate a limited number of transport aircraft, the Italian Air Force opted to transfer some of its Savoia-Marchetti SM.82 aircraft to the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, pending the definition of their exact status (the SM.82 were properly long range transport aircraft that could be adapted for bombing missions). These aircraft were operated by Italian Air Force personnel temporarily flying for the Order, carried the Order's roundels on the fuselage and Italian ones on the wings, and were used mainly for standard Italian Air Force training and transport missions but also for some humanitarian tasks proper of the Order of Malta (like the transport of sick pilgrims to the Lourdes sanctuary). In the early '50s, when the strictures of the peace treaty had been much relaxed by the Allied authorities, the aircraft returned under full control of the Italian Air Force. One of the aircraft transferred to the Order of Malta, still with the Order's fuselage roundels, is preserved in the Italian Air Force Museum.[84]

    Logistics Edit
    The Military Corps has become known in mainland Europe for its operation of hospital trains,[85] a service which was carried out intensively during both World Wars. The Military Corps still operates a modern 28-car hospital train with 192 hospital beds, serviced by a medical staff of 38 medics and paramedics provided by the Order and a technical staff provided by the Italian Army's Railway Engineer Regiment.[8
    I have seen a photo of my father in the early 50’s being loaded onto an OOM ex-Italian bomber for a pilgrimage to Lourdes - he was bed bound with a nasty form of TB in his bones.
    Last edited by Flamingo; 31st March 2020 at 20:40.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  40. #23
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    Military Medical Facilities

    Doing nothing is not a viable option. Elements of PDF are already helping. In our extinct hospitals orderlies were often pirated from well patients to help the Army nurses. I remember we "lost" a seaman in Cork MH and the Matron pleaded to leave him as he was great with the patients. In any ARMY there should be an implementation Plan on the shelf for a Field Hospital ( 200) and there is no excuse for not being able to produce ,at a number of locations, a Troop Hospital (50) for Military or civil use. The Nightingale units in the UK are going to use Airline Cabin crew staffs to assist. If we just capitulate we are losing the battle. A willing volunteer is another pair of hands and can always follow orders. In Stores we should have the construction elements and plans for such hospitals to be erected in buildings, stadia, or tentage.

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  42. #24
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Corpo speciale volontario ausiliario dell'Esercito Italiano dell'Associazione dei cavalieri italiani del Sovrano militare Ordine di Malta, Corpo Militare EI-SMOM

    It is a voluntary auxiliary corps that provides medical staff for the Italian Army
    Like the Irish Red Cross being under DoD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    There’s much more to a field hospital than a building with a few beds, Dr’s and nurses. The whole logistics of equipment, supplies, feeding patients and staff, water, sanitation, admission, laboratories, power, auxiliary staff, waste disposal (both ordinary and hazardous), mortuary services, (the list can go on) is not something that can be designed in five minutes on the back of a fag packet.

    In a way, having the people to man it is the easy bit.

    The army/civil defence would be ideally placed to plan and provide all the services needed to set up the facility.
    We could have a team of 1000 people to set it up but no use if no clinicians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    The current plan in most places seems to be to use the field hospitals for the Covid-19 cases, keeping the ordinary hospitals clean. This would make sense, keep the dirty cases together and provide the facilities they need there, while having the specialist facilities needed by the “ordinary” patients still available.
    It looks like they are the overflow as the initial cases will have made that “clean” hospital “dirty”

    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Just a couple of things

    (

    In emergency such as this , they wouldn't be released for RDF service



    No benefit as the training regime and requalification within a hospital setting would be rendered null and void unless they were permanently based in a hospital setting, even in the most basic roles. use it or lose it scenario. To work simply as a porter would take a week of very simple qualifications, hand hygiene, standard precautions, working with gases, patient handling, TMVA, fire training, Sharps, Spinal Lifting, Waste Management etc. And thats if the resources are available to train them as the HSE have enough difficulty getting access to training the selves.

    Soldiers train to be soldiers and a few specialize in some hospital functions, The HSE is not a training facility for the Army but a live environment where the people are there for the long haul and live in a ever changing environment. Some would thrive in it, but if thats what they want, why did they become soldiers.
    I’m not talking about the current situation I mean in general.

    Although soldiers in CMU are soldiers first in the main their day to day is as clinicians, which means that they are trained in that kind of thing already.

    Hospitals & ambulances are very much training environments. Student doctors, NCHDs, supernumeraries on ambulances, paramedics on rotations, etc etc

    I’m not talking about put Capt Y into the Mater to help on shift (being no more than a MFR at best) I’m proposing a formal recognised scheme whereby Capt (Dr) Y as part of his studies (as a fully trained medical doctor) has to do say a 4 shifts a month in an A&E (this is partially happening as part of the Mil Medicine/GP training but I mean that it should be ongoing) or where DF ambulances (fully trained paramedics) provide an extra ambulance to the HSE (happens already). Liken it to instead of the infantryman’s weekly duty being on guard, the CMU soldiers duties include in a hospital/ambulance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    But again who is to care for them given we don't have enough professionals in front line posts as it is. The 'normal' sick are again of age group in which 90% are over 70 years old and require specialist care whether it be GEMs nursing, Occupational therapy , Physios , Pharmacists and nutritionists, without having any support staff in place to ensure the supports are in place to keep it all running. The health Service as it is has ground to a halt in preparation for the 'surge' Maternity services and oncology are the only things running half normally

    The hospital system and its supports need consolidation and not off on wild goose chases experimenting with non options we know absolutely nothing about.

    People mention shortages of PPE, I'd be more concerned about the shortage of Portable bottled oxygen in 'CD' size becuase of the amount of cylinders removed from hospitals by people for their own use leaving an acute shortage of this size in the country....the cylinders are out there... can we have them back please to have them refilled?

    The amount of high value PPE that walked out the doors of hospitals because staff wanted to protect them selves at home!... I know of a hospital where 200 'duck bill' type FFP3 masks were issued on Friday, non left on monday and no patient of the type requiring this type of mask presented....

    First aiders, community responders are just that, not equipped by any means to deal with people who will be / are very sick. To expect them to do other than their title suggest is unfair and they are needed in those roles as well.

    If the surge happens , when the current support staff are wiped out , its the people to clean wards , wash and feed patients, porters, chefs,supplies people we are going to need .

    We saw it in SIPTUs strike last year, you can have all the nurses and doctors you like, without the support staff , hospitals cannot function.

    Back to field hospitals, you can't do it in days, it takes years to get it right, we haven't the luxury of that time....and the DF are a limited force, 125,000 people working in the HSE......with large portions of them now redeployed to simply supporting hospitals.. the DF is less than 8000 people all ranks, without any real hospital experience behind them bar Paramedics.

    Reality please.
    Shit load of PPE went missing from a health center in Tallaght two weeks ago including FFP2 duckbills

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