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  • Military Medical Facilities

    Originally posted by Irish View Post
    Anyone care to answer?
    Except for specialists , at all levels, most will be placed to fill shortages, with a lean towards filling some vacancies in a candidates home unit, if they are from a garrison townland, otherwise it is potluck. My main concern right now is, where are our Medical Corps and their expertise in setting up major Field Hospitals ? Getting stuff from Asia after the stable doors were slammed, gives me the impression that the AMC may be a paper Tiger. We have a National Security Document and normally, hazards to be prepared for are, Diseases and natural disasters. What does that mean practically or is it also a paper exercise that has succumbed to frugality. It seems the cupboards were empty, with no reserve, of equipment or personnel. I see the BA are outfitting Field type Hospitals in the UK for up to 4000 beds each.

  • #2
    That is because while we identified risks during the risk assessment phase our default stance in this country is the likelihood of occurrence is low which usually translate it doing nothing. This is not unique to government circles, I have seen it time and time again in business

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    • #3
      No forward planning for contingencies.

      Prime example.The Dept allowing the DF strength to be run down to almost ineffective levels.
      "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by apod View Post
        No forward planning for contingencies.

        Prime example.The Dept allowing the DF strength to be run down to almost ineffective levels.
        The current battle is being fought by our health care workers. They are inadequately equipped as some 23% of infected casualties are health care staffs. The comparative figure for Italy is 7.5% and Spain is 14.5%. The rush to re-equip is an example of widespread frugality and general poor minded notions of those charged by Constitution to run our country. Every time the unusual crops up we are left to pay the price . It's time a process was put in place to establish the chain of responsibility and set norms for dealing with diseases and disasters. If international best practice sets a certain amount of ICU beds per 100,000 of population then we MUST comply with that and so on with amounts of normal use Hospital beds. I would still like to know , where is the AMC.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Bravo20 View Post
          That is because while we identified risks during the risk assessment phase our default stance in this country is the likelihood of occurrence is low which usually translate it doing nothing. This is not unique to government circles, I have seen it time and time again in business
          And this show that most do not use a proper risk matrix, for this pandemic or any other national security threat.
          On one axis is the probability and this can be low but there is the other axis and that is the more important one and that is the consequence severity axis.
          If some which is highly unlikely does occur and it will have a major consequence then it has to be planned for.
          Only when something is low probability and low severity then nothing needs to be done. This goes for business as well as for government

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          • #6
            Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
            .... I would still like to know , where is the AMC.
            Refer to post #6 above...
            "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
              Refer to post #6 above...
              Indeed, and we should be experts in Field Hospital construction and contagion medicine . The Defence Forces were allowed drift in to an organisation of convenience for Government/Political tasks and ideology. We are naked in the face of the modern international threats. What happens now--same old, same old.

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              • #8
                It is not just the DF that needs to be better supported, the DoD is also responsible for Civil Defence. Their role and expertise is often overlooked but they have a major role in this. They provide many ambulances and specialist to tackle what is a civil threat. But like the rest of the DoD charges they too have to conform to the what is the minimum we can get away with approach of the DoD. Today we have a viral pandemic, but what would happen if one day Sellafield exploded? Would we have the decontamination capacity or mobile hospitals to deal with it? No.

                A start would be to see how the link between the Civil Defence and the army's Medical & Engineering corps can be strengthen

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                  It is not just the DF that needs to be better supported, the DoD is also responsible for Civil Defence. Their role and expertise is often overlooked but they have a major role in this. They provide many ambulances and specialist to tackle what is a civil threat. But like the rest of the DoD charges they too have to conform to the what is the minimum we can get away with approach of the DoD. Today we have a viral pandemic, but what would happen if one day Sellafield exploded? Would we have the decontamination capacity or mobile hospitals to deal with it? No.

                  A start would be to see how the link between the Civil Defence and the army's Medical & Engineering corps can be strengthen
                  I agree, but the pity is that those who know how to set up Field type hospitals. and probably underwent courses on the matter, are not asked for their opinions or input. There is a paper from Medical gurus at Bricknell setting out a full 200 bed hospital on a greenfield site. In a surge situation they also recommend a Whole Hospital Information System to cut down on paper work, it's not yet in the british system but is available in US Field Hospitals (WHIS). There is too much spin in the offing of a politically defensive nature, I heard one JM saying this was a one in a hundred year event, and of course you can't plan for that?? If we continue with a just in time philosophy we will be frequently up to our chins in water, disease, or nuclear fallout. Even the Scouts say be prepared.

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                  • #10
                    How many once in a hundred year events have we had in the last 10, 20, 30 years? Between snow, storms, floods and pandemics?
                    Scary thing is it's much more frequnt we have social upheaval, yet our forces are not prepared for that either. Invest now to prepare for the unlikelyhood.
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      How many once in a hundred year events have we had in the last 10, 20, 30 years? Between snow, storms, floods and pandemics?
                      Scary thing is it's much more frequnt we have social upheaval, yet our forces are not prepared for that either. Invest now to prepare for the unlikelyhood.
                      Exactly. If your hazard is a distant event but could wipe out your population or economy then plan and prepare. World events are not neutral or selective. The irony is that NGO's and Government agencies know that hazards facing us all include Natural disasters and Diseases. We also need to consider manufacturing PPE, using our clothing and chemical/distilling industries, and create a new trade, also for export.

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                      • #12
                        There is a paper from Medical gurus at Bricknell setting out a full 200 bed hospital on a greenfield site. In a surge situation they also recommend a Whole Hospital Information System to cut down on paper work, it's not yet in the british system but is available in US Field Hospitals (WHIS)
                        The army don't have the 'trades to run a hospital of this magnitude as the DF have piggy backed on the HSE for all their medical cover for years and with the DF running at under 8000 spread over the country there will never been the staff or the funding to do so.

                        This pandemic is being led by Respiratory specialists and Anaesthologists due to the nature of the treatment. There isn't and over flow of these available , so diverting funds to acquire and set up Army Field hospitals is a non runner.

                        The DF in a support mode through ambulances, testing and Logs is what is needed . If the DF doctors can be incorporated into the HSE for the duration, all the better.
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                          The army don't have the 'trades to run a hospital of this magnitude as the DF have piggy backed on the HSE for all their medical cover for years and with the DF running at under 8000 spread over the country there will never been the staff or the funding to do so.

                          This pandemic is being led by Respiratory specialists and Anaesthologists due to the nature of the treatment. There isn't and over flow of these available , so diverting funds to acquire and set up Army Field hospitals is a non runner.

                          The DF in a support mode through ambulances, testing and Logs is what is needed . If the DF doctors can be incorporated into the HSE for the duration, all the better.
                          To be fair, no peacetime army needs a large medical footprint, a few orthopaedic surgeons and GP’s could cover 90% of the work, as one is dealing with a workforce that is significantly fitter than the average population, and indeed chosen as such.

                          The US and the U.K. (both significantly larger than Ireland in terms of population and Armed Forces) rely on mobilisation of suitably trained professional reservists to staff their medical services in wartime- something that would be counterproductive at the moment.

                          This is not to say that having the ability to deploy is unnecessary - I would say the knowledge and ability is vital, even if the actual staff manning it are drawn from civil defence and other sources, rather than being “green”.

                          Look at the Italian army - their medical service is provided by the Order of Malta.
                          'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                          'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                          Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                          He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                          http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                            The army don't have the 'trades to run a hospital of this magnitude as the DF have piggy backed on the HSE for all their medical cover for years and with the DF running at under 8000 spread over the country there will never been the staff or the funding to do so.

                            This pandemic is being led by Respiratory specialists and Anaesthologists due to the nature of the treatment. There isn't and over flow of these available , so diverting funds to acquire and set up Army Field hospitals is a non runner.

                            The DF in a support mode through ambulances, testing and Logs is what is needed . If the DF doctors can be incorporated into the HSE for the duration, all the better.
                            The idea would be to construct rather than also man. The spare hospitals would allow normal sick or convalescents to be transferred and cared for in a non-infectious building (Covid free), leaving Main hospitals continue treating the Covid positives. Manning can be augmented by Civil medical organisations and grounded cabin crews from our airlines etc.

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                            • #15
                              We are in panic mode at the moment "fire fighting" the pandemic as best we (and others) can. Like many others countries we were not prepared for this and that is what has to change. China was able to mobilise its massive industrial base to tackle the crisis. Those temporary hospitals they built were only possible as they had the capacity to do so. As a small nation we will never have that industrial capacity so we need to start planning and investing in the future once the panic phase is over.

                              The WHO had been running simulations since 2016 with Virus X (based on SARS) , a potential world wide pandemic to see how it would spread and what would need to be done. Did anyone do anything? When late last year we all saw the outbreak in Wuhan did anyone start preparing? Sticking the head in the sand and saying "ah it is a 100 year event" should not be what comes out of this.

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