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  • #46
    Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
    I have to say that the thoughts of a 320/21 are off the wall, yes you can probably buy a nice used one or ten now for smallish money but the running costs and complexity to operate in support terms are a couple of steps up from where the AC is.
    If you read it properly you will see that I clearly stated that the depot support could and should be done locally under contract at Dublin Aerospace as there is no capacity to do it at the Don. It is normal practice in many airforces to contract in services.

    Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
    I am sure there are many ACMI/commercial operators with 320/737 aircraft that can fill that mission more efficiently then the AC could.
    They own them and control their use - so back to square one in mission independence.

    Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Brilliant aircraft that the 320 series is it is not a tactical/strategic transporter. You need paved runways, ground support equipment for loading and unloading and you can't drop anything from it.

    IMHO we need a capability you can't get at 12hrs notice on the ACMI market, and I believe If is doesn't have a ramp it shouldn't even be in the conversation.
    Most airforces have both a commercial type and at least a medium twin. An A321 is in the same class a B757 and used in the strategic role.

    Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
    There are viable options.. e.g. piggy back on the Portuguese KC-390 order, they are even getting a sim.

    Or look at the C-130J's that are now on the market. In an AC operating context, where the aircraft will be primarily used in a more benign environment, then the previous owners(RAF), they should have at least 20 years left in them, while still retaining the huge capability that has been proven.

    New Build C-130 under FMS

    Reconditioned C-130H under FMS

    Money no object A-400!
    Sorry but you cannot have it both ways and say that an A320 is too complex and expensive to run for the IAC to operate (which local firm Dublin Aerospace can do for you) and then turn around and want new build C-130J's and KC-390 the like or God forbid a reconditioned C-130H which I can tell you from RNZAF experience cost millions per year per airframe in spare parts that are no longer produced and getting harder to find.

    BTW - the RAF C-130J if when they come available will require a centre box replacement and you will have to wait to 2030 before they are released for FMS.

    And you make accusations of an A320 purchase being off the wall?

    Comment


    • #47
      Yes we have (ab)used the CASAs for resupply missions but just because it can be done does not mean it should be. They are filled with a lot of equipment for the primary maritime patrol mission and having them do resupply missions is like taking a MOWAG down to SuperValue to get some messages.

      We have discussed holding onto the 2 CN-235 aircraft when the new C-295's arrive, but they too would have limitations. Currently we want to rotate 352 troops from UNIFIL, even if we removed all the MPA equipment that would most likely take 10 flights. We could do a shuttle between Beirut and Akrotiri with a Aer Fungus/Ryanair charter back to the Don, but less than ideal.

      The Embraer (K)C-390 is interesting, not only has Portugal order 5 (they make some parts) but there was interest from Czech Air Force and Hungarian Air Force. And as part of the original negotiation with Sweden there was the idea of Sweden replacing their C-130's with KC-390's if the JAS-39 won in Brazil. The latter went very cold and nothing has been heard recently. However with all the chaos recently there might be movement, with Boeing dumping Embraer at the last minute this has left Embraer in a difficult situation. Maybe there will be renewed pressure on Sweden to take some KC-390's.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Anzac View Post
        If you read it properly you will see that I clearly stated that the depot support could and should be done locally under contract at Dublin Aerospace as there is no capacity to do it at the Don. It is normal practice in many airforces to contract in services.

        They own them and control their use - so back to square one in mission independence.

        Most airforces have both a commercial type and at least a medium twin. An A321 is in the same class a B757 and used in the strategic role.

        Sorry but you cannot have it both ways and say that an A320 is too complex and expensive to run for the IAC to operate (which local firm Dublin Aerospace can do for you) and then turn around and want new build C-130J's and KC-390 the like or God forbid a reconditioned C-130H which I can tell you from RNZAF experience cost millions per year per airframe in spare parts that are no longer produced and getting harder to find.

        BTW - the RAF C-130J if when they come available will require a centre box replacement and you will have to wait to 2030 before they are released for FMS.

        And you make accusations of an A320 purchase being off the wall?
        Agree with your points, however the air forces that have the 757 or equivalent transport aircraft already have the C-130 class aircraft.

        This is the capability that I believe the DF needs.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
          Agree with your points, however the air forces that have the 757 or equivalent transport aircraft already have the C-130 class aircraft.

          This is the capability that I believe the DF needs.
          this really - the capability the DF needs is precisely the one that you can't hire from NetJets or wherever: its the capability to go to some unpaved hellhole in Mali or Chad with bullets, fuel and spare parts, its the ability to go to Beruit or Tripoli airport when no commercial carrier will go there.

          the same logic applies to a blue-green logistics/whatever vessel - if you need to take HADR to an earthquake/typhoon wrecked island, then no, the port infrastructure won't work, and no, the airport won't work: thats kind of the point - if this stuff worked then you wouldn't need to go there in the first place....

          Comment


          • #50
            Surely if you are rotating 352 troops 2/3 times a year it makes sense to charter civilian aircraft even if you have military transport. I can imagine travelling those sort of distances is more comfortable on airliners . Most regular long distance Troop transfers these days are done on Airliners either chartered or operated by the military. And besides the "emergency" airdrop or supply of an extra MOWAG do we need a C130J type aircraft. As Anzac proposed an A321 would be far more usable

            Comment


            • #51
              To put some figures and thus perspective.

              Before Covid a new A321 costs around $46m each, a 10yr old one was down at $18m. Now that will have dropped in the past few weeks and is now likely to be even lower as the market value will now be based upon how much it is worth in parts. As a grey civilian aircraft would be better with a large cargo door on the main deck then a P2F like that offered by EFW could be done for around $6m per aircraft. Thus a multi-role grey A321 would cost around $24m (€22m). For that you would get something that could transport pallets and containers, could be quick changed for troop transport (200-200 troops) or even as medevac. On the minus side would be; that it needs a paved runway and dedicated GSE to load and unload.

              The flyaway cost for a C-130J for the USAF is currently $95m (system cost is $115m per aircraft) the cost of a A400M is around double that. The KC-390 comes in at around $61m based upon the order from FAB. So what do you get for the extra money, well it is flexibility, rough field landing, no need for GSE for loading and unloading, ability to take larger sized loads and a avionics and defensive suite tailored to military transport.

              Just looking at the cost of the aircraft on their own; 4x C-390's + 2x A320P2F(M) would be less that 5x C-130J's. That would be one major upgrade in terms of airlift capacity!
              Last edited by EUFighter; 15 May 2020, 12:11.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by apc View Post
                Surely if you are rotating 352 troops 2/3 times a year it makes sense to charter civilian aircraft even if you have military transport. I can imagine travelling those sort of distances is more comfortable on airliners . Most regular long distance Troop transfers these days are done on Airliners either chartered or operated by the military. And besides the "emergency" airdrop or supply of an extra MOWAG do we need a C130J type aircraft. As Anzac proposed an A321 would be far more usable
                you confuse two different issues - yes, for regular trooping flights you'd just use any commercial contractor. using a C-130 or whatever to move people from one working international airport to another is not just uncomfortable, its a complete waste of money/fatigue life, and opportunity. no one flies to the Falklands in a C-17...

                however, the problem is some are holding on to use and not need. an A320 would get a great deal of use, it could do all the troop rotations, do the MATS task, a bit of air ambulance, civilian repatriations - but its nothing you can't hire on an as-and-when basis. the tactical, ramp-at-the-back airlifter would get less use, but it fulfills a need that no A320 ever could.

                soldiers use chairs far more than they use rifles, but sitting on chairs isn't why soldiers exist...
                Last edited by ropebag; 15 May 2020, 12:24.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by apc View Post
                  As Anzac proposed an A321 would be far more usable
                  I'm not so sure. A C130 can comfortbably fly into an unpaved strip or an international airport. An A320 can comfortably fly into an interantional airport. One capability covers all possibilities. The other is a luxury. In a straight choice, there is no point in having the luxury at the expense of the comprehensive.

                  However, either would be an improvement on the current situation.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Are the A380 awaiting scrapping still being stored at Knock? Just sayin....
                    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      Are the A380 awaiting scrapping still being stored at Knock? Just sayin....
                      Is officially listed as stored but given that it arrived a few weeks before the lock-down I would suspect that high value rotatable parts will have been removed.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                        To put some figures and thus perspective.

                        Before Covid a new A321 costs around $46m each, a 10yr old one was down at $18m. Now that will have dropped in the past few weeks and is now likely to be even lower as the market value will now be based upon how much it is worth in parts. As a grey civilian aircraft would be better with a large cargo door on the main deck then a P2F like that offered by EFW could be done for around $6m per aircraft. Thus a multi-role grey A321 would cost around $24m (€22m). For that you would get something that could transport pallets and containers, could be quick changed for troop transport (200-200 troops) or even as medevac. On the minus side would be; that it needs a paved runway and dedicated GSE to load and unload.

                        The flyaway cost for a C-130J for the USAF is currently $95m (system cost is $115m per aircraft) the cost of a A400M is around double that. The KC-390 comes in at around $61m based upon the order from FAB. So what do you get for the extra money, well it is flexibility, rough field landing, no need for GSE for loading and unloading, ability to take larger sized loads and a avionics and defensive suite tailored to military transport.

                        Just looking at the cost of the aircraft on their own; 4x C-390's + 2x A320P2F(M) would be less that 5x C-130J's. That would be one major upgrade in terms of airlift capacity!
                        Jesus 4 x 390s and 2 A320s sure you might buy a couple of Tanker conversion kits for the squadron of Grippens

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by apc View Post
                          Jesus 4 x 390s and 2 A320s sure you might buy a couple of Tanker conversion kits for the squadron of Grippens
                          You mean the squadrons of Grippens!
                          KC390 do come with tanker kit options.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                            You mean the squadrons of Grippens!
                            KC390 do come with tanker kit options.
                            Buy it all! Joe Public is too preocciupied with Maccy Dee's reopening, Gembots antics, Nudity on RTE TV and Johnny versus Dickie to pay any heed to military spending. Ireland stopped watching the news around Easter Sunday. Most of them think the Air Corps only have one plane/helicopter anyway.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                              Buy it all! Joe Public is too preocciupied with Maccy Dee's reopening, Gembots antics, Nudity on RTE TV and Johnny versus Dickie to pay any heed to military spending. Ireland stopped watching the news around Easter Sunday. Most of them think the Air Corps only have one plane/helicopter anyway.
                              We need them now to perform fire fighting duty at the Curragh, so best get the fire fighting kit while we are at it.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Jetjock View Post
                                I'm not so sure. A C130 can comfortbably fly into an unpaved strip or an international airport. An A320 can comfortably fly into an interantional airport. One capability covers all possibilities. The other is a luxury. In a straight choice, there is no point in having the luxury at the expense of the comprehensive.

                                However, either would be an improvement on the current situation.
                                An A320 can fly into a regional sized airport with a tarmac runway (In fact the Australian Antarctic Division use an A319 to fly supplies into Antarctica onto an ice runway).

                                The reality is an Irish contingent or other smaller national component of a larger UN operation particularly in UNSC ChpVII Peace Enforcement scenarios, would be staging through an air facility 'hub' with a tarmac runway that is likely to have ground support facilities to use in-situ or provided by one of the bigger players in the operation. IIRC even the ARW staged through RAAF Darwin on to the forward base established at Dili Airport, then Suai. RNZAF flew resupply missions into theatre using both C-130 and B727 into Dili. That is typical of the home to hub aspect of the Strategic Air Mobility chain. The luxury is being able to afford the last mile. The necessity is the getting you there and back part as it is not the last mile that is the first problem it is those first 1000+ miles in terms of capability development.

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