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  • #76
    Is a C-295 the solution to the all our airlift needs? No
    Is a C-295 better than nothing? Yes

    The C-295 is a small tactical airlifter, it is good for moving 436L pallets and troops over short distances. The Spanish will say it take a Vamtac but that is really pushing it and the range drops dramatically. To rotate troops out of Lebanon would take more than a week using a C-295. It would be good as a start to train with, to start to develop operational procedures etc.

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    • #77
      If you want to develop procedures, dip your toe in experience and doctrine, and see what would work for Ireland , then send some of your people on secondment to (for example) the French Air Force - there are a number of European air forces with a mix of smaller tactical to larger tactical/strategic airlift platforms, put your people in those airlift systems for a year, let them observe and learn lessons, then come back, have a conversation about what would work and what wouldn't, and go from there.

      We also, repeatedly, come back to this issue of the filling of this or that immediate capability gap with little thought to what environments and operations that same platform may or will need to undertake 5, 10, 20 or 30 years after this immediate gap has been plugged - does anyone, for example, think that in 2035 the NS and wider defence and foreign policy stakeholders will think that half the NS's fleet not having a flight deck and with still another 10/15 years of service left is a really good thing, and that they will be writing papers on how the decision to not have flight decks on the P60 class was a far sighted plan of genius?

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      • #78
        We have already made an agreement with the RAAF to have some pilots (2 initially) go to do multi-engine training with them. If they got to do some time on a C27J or C130J that would be great. But when it comes to development of procedures we are talking about the DF in total. Be it from simple familiarization training for troops to things like how to load pallets for air drops and how to co-ordinate such drops. Clearly exchanges with other nations such as Australia and France will help speed this but there will still need to be a lot of work at home, even if it is only flying safely at low level in Irish weather!

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        • #79
          Originally posted by ropebag View Post
          We also, repeatedly, come back to this issue of the filling of this or that immediate capability gap with little thought to what environments and operations that same platform may or will need to undertake 5, 10, 20 or 30 years after this immediate gap has been plugged - does anyone, for example, think that in 2035 the NS and wider defence and foreign policy stakeholders will think that half the NS's fleet not having a flight deck and with still another 10/15 years of service left is a really good thing, and that they will be writing papers on how the decision to not have flight decks on the P60 class was a far sighted plan of genius?
          This goes to the heart of all discussions about what the DF should be and how they should be equipped. A long, long, long time ago, before Covid, feels like 10,000BC now during the General Election there was a proposal to have a proper defence consultation/review, now yes the GP did not have anything on defence but hopefully FFG will keep that promise even if it is a little later than originally planned.

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          • #80
            Great fecking article:

            First a random picture of a fighter when that's not what's being talked about, and then complaints that 10 million is too much to pay...**** me!

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
              Great fecking article:

              First a random picture of a fighter when that's not what's being talked about, and then complaints that 10 million is too much to pay...**** me!
              It is all over the place now, "10m to fleece the nation", a variety of nations we can purchase from, and that from a "defence expert"!

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              • #82
                Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                It is all over the place now, "10m to fleece the nation", a variety of nations we can purchase from, and that from a "defence expert"!
                Yep, the business post has the same article with a picture of a C130 and that it's being considered... for 10 million? Unless they dropped a zero it sure as feck isn't.

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                • #83
                  The DoD view

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                  • #84
                    What ****ing cargo plane does Cathal think can be bought for 10 million in flying condition?

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                    • #85
                      Given the detail the examiner report goes into, the detail of cathal's quote may have been lost somewhere.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                        Given the detail the examiner report goes into, the detail of cathal's quote may have been lost somewhere.
                        Looking at that post of the Sunday business post I don’t think he was.

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                        • #87
                          with regard to loading of things like Casas, does the AC even do loadmasters or load supervisors?

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                          • #88
                            Really the only source of relatively quick deliverable tactical airlifter is the USAF boneyard, the youngest C-130E they have is from 1972 while the youngest C-130H is 1992. Poland took 5 C-130E's about 10 years ago, for around $20m per aircraft with another $11m refurbishment each. So the minimum for a 30-40yr old C-130 into service is around $30m or same as a new build C-295.

                            The RAF did get rid of some of their C-130J's a while back but they were snapped up by Bangladesh after France signaled that the asking price was far too high; $650m!!!

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                            • #89
                              Doesn't any purchase from the US or AMARC come with a bucketload of red tape also, given we are not in NATO?
                              Slovac AF arrived in Dublin last week to repatriate its citizens in a C160 type. Would that offer much advantage over a C295 in terms of Range?
                              What about leasing until we decide how much we are willing to spend?
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                                with regard to loading of things like Casas, does the AC even do loadmasters or load supervisors?
                                Starting to show how long you are gone now.

                                Yes they do. You hardly think they just throw a load of gear into the aircraft, strap it down and fly off and hope for the best do you? Although given how much you pontificate about how badly everything was done in the Air Corps, maybe you do.

                                The one issue that is being lost in the noise of all of this is buying a single aircraft of one type is rarely a good idea. The basics indicate that if you need a minimum of three to ensure availability of at least one.

                                The very best the Air Corps can do out of this is an extra utility 295, bringing the total to three. With the first MPA version arriving circa 2022, the Gov would have to beg some nation who already have one nearing the end of the production line to provide their one, perhaps with a bonus payment of a couple of million for the inconvenience.

                                The cynic in me is highly suspect of the whole sentiment. The Taoiseach has resided as Defense Minister for some time now yet the only acknowledgement of lack of airlift has come when the issue of the two officers in DRC and the troops in Lebanon start appearing on the paper. Throw the dogs a bone and that'll distract them for a while is a proven political strategy. Certainly anything who is imagining a picture of C130/KC390 and even a 320/737 type with an Air Corps roundel on it is delusional.

                                The optimist points to the recent acquisition of the PC12. A purchase that was not planned or intended for the DF and was very opportunistic in nature which is so far at the opposite end of the DoD modus operandi that its hard to fathom. €4-5m was found and funded with very little fuss it seems. €10m to jump into the front of the production line for a 295 sounds a lot more reasonable than purchasing a clapped out C130.

                                Maybe the penny is dropping that purchasing military equipment isn't political suicide.

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