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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    French unit???
    Is France still a western nation?
    All the media hype was we are the only westerners left there.
    France is, but many of its soldiers are from.former french colonies, and it likes to leave its overseas operations in these places to the FFL or troops who dont seem like foreigners to the locals.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  2. #202
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    This 'problem with their personal weapons' stuff is just crap - get in taxi, disassemble rifle/pistol, stop by garbage truck/river, throw parts in. Drive to airport.

    Have none of you ever seen Jason Bourne?

    They probably dumped their uniforms as well - has someone set up a counselling session for the pen-pusher who'll have to write the loss off?

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  4. #203
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    According to the Irish Times article, they fired off all the ammo at a range before leaving the weapons behind.

    Can anyone give a (good, bad, or indifferent) reason why this was necessary, and why it was felt necessary to include that bit of information in the briefing or story?

    I’m not being clever, but I cannot figure it out.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  6. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    According to the Irish Times article, they fired off all the ammo at a range before leaving the weapons behind.

    Can anyone give a (good, bad, or indifferent) reason why this was necessary, and why it was felt necessary to include that bit of information in the briefing or story?

    I’m not being clever, but I cannot figure it out.
    Well clearly, once you get rid of all your ammo, there is no chance that ammo with Irish lot numbers will find their way into the hands of those up to no good.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  8. #205
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Fair enough
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  9. #206
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
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    Did anyone ask Air France about weapon and ammo transport?

  10. #207
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    I've flown on a commercial flight - cattle class obviously - with five other blokes, in civvies, with rifles, pistols and ammunition in the hold. British Airways.

    I know people who fly with rifles in the hold to go on shooting holidays, and do so every year in Europe.

    Inertia in search of an excuse, methinks...

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  12. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Did anyone ask Air France about weapon and ammo transport?
    Against the rules on commercial flights.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
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  13. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Against the rules on commercial flights.
    You probably ought to tell the airlines that, because they're happily accepting firearms and ammunition as hold baggage.

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  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Against the rules on commercial flights.
    Commercial fights allow the carriage of both firearms and ammo. This is how sports shooters and hunters are able to transport their weapons. There are some specific rules related to the packaging, for example ammo in cardboard is OK, but in ammo cans not. I know a Steyr or an USP is not a sports or hunting weapon, but knowing the French and how they "interpret rules" it might have been worth a shot. Anyway the French solders will likely bring the stuff home on the next Air France machine anyway.

    And how did they get their weapons and ammo out to Goma in the first place? Private jet?

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  17. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    You probably ought to tell the airlines that, because they're happily accepting firearms and ammunition as hold baggage.
    I shouldn't really reply here on my mobile. I get distracted midway through a post and forget to finish it before clicking "post".
    This was the reason intimated in the article.
    A major barrier to flying the officers home commercially was their weapons. They could not bring them home on a commercial flight nor could they leave them behind unattended.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...elay-1.4267026

    The question is, now that they are home, will the DoD decide the need for Military airlift has passed?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  18. #212
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    The question is, why did whoever spoke to the IT tell them something that is demonstratively untrue?

    DOD lying because they didn't want to fork out for Air France tickets and whatever 'local fees' were required? DOD/DF talking out of their arse through shere ignorance?

    The case for airlift has been in evidence since Ireland started contributing to UN missions - sometimes it's more acute and public, and sometimes less so, but it's always been there. If cabinet decides that the need no longer exists because the headlines have gone away, then that's a political problem - and one journalists can help you with, if you let them, and if you help them....

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  20. #213
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    Remember in one of the African trips (Maybe Chad, but could have been Liberia) when there was early on identified a woeful lack of airlift of any sort. So "someone" decided to hire a civvy company whu used old MIL Mi-8 helis, painted white. An investigation found they were just about airworthy but should never have been anywhere near the operational area.
    Are the Italians still operating in Lebanon with their Hueys?
    It seems, when it comes the the UN at least, they will take what they can get. If our government are so keen for UN brownie points, then acquire proper air lift aircraft, and rotate them to whatever UN mission needs them, with crew and basic support, and you can say you participated in another mission, without having to go through triple lock. Everyone wins.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  22. #214
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    The simple fact is that no available capability to withdraw personnel from whatever hell-hole somebody thinks it's a good idea to go to, should never get passed an initial mission risk assessment. If we want to deploy on these missions, we must possess a capability to get out in a hurry. Or don't go.

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  24. #215
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    We are assuming that they were handed into the French. There is a very small French contingent with MONUSCO (7 personnel).

    The hoops you have to jump through to get DG on an aircraft is unreal (If you aren’t exposed to it on a regular basis). Now remember we are talking about 2 personnel who chances aren’t DG qualified (never mind having access to the correct packaging, labelling, DG note in theatre!, even with reach back to Ireland it has to be in theatre). Especially when time is critical. Even then the pilot has the right to refuse DG cargoes. So what would the 2 soldiers do then, wave off their lift home because they just found out at boarding that their weapons cannot travel. The right decision was made.

    Strange though they we are now talking about sending their replacements (3 Officers this time) into the same theatre.

  25. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Remember in one of the African trips (Maybe Chad, but could have been Liberia) when there was early on identified a woeful lack of airlift of any sort. So "someone" decided to hire a civvy company whu used old MIL Mi-8 helis, painted white. An investigation found they were just about airworthy but should never have been anywhere near the operational area.
    Are the Italians still operating in Lebanon with their Hueys?
    It seems, when it comes the the UN at least, they will take what they can get. If our government are so keen for UN brownie points, then acquire proper air lift aircraft, and rotate them to whatever UN mission needs them, with crew and basic support, and you can say you participated in another mission, without having to go through triple lock. Everyone wins.
    https://www.audit.gov.ie/en/Find-Rep...on-to-Chad.pdf

    In fairness, the mission should have air assets in place for use by all contributing nations especially for CASEVAC. They are a force not a contingent asset.

    Also in fairness, in this particular case I’d say it was someone trying their best to make sure the guys doing the job were covered. The can do approach.

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  27. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetjock View Post
    The simple fact is that no available capability to withdraw personnel from whatever hell-hole somebody thinks it's a good idea to go to, should never get passed an initial mission risk assessment. If we want to deploy on these missions, we must possess a capability to get out in a hurry. Or don't go.
    We can also not rely on the UN to provide us with proper logistic needs. The condition of the vehicles that were sent to Chad when they arrived there, and back home after was an eye opener.
    "Hi guys, heres €2m worth of vehicle, can you ship it to central africa?"
    "No problem, my mate has a truck that we use to collect wood in the jungle, it should be fine for your vehicles, once the journey isn't too long"
    "To Douala?"
    "Er, where in Chad is that?"
    "It's in Cameroon"
    "Have you much to be moved?"
    "not much, just 208 TEU, and 75 Trucks, Jeeps and Armour"
    "You might be better off flying it out?"
    "no need, sure doesn't your mate have a truck?"
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  29. #218
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    In the case of the Mi-8s mentioned, hiring firms with Mi-8s proved easy enough but they were not equipped with crashworthy seats and were rejected for that reason. I'd say you'd have a job to find any Mi8s or Mi-17s with such seats for hire anywhere in Africa,outside of government sources. Ironically,it had not been a problem in the past, especially when said Mi-8s were escorted by Mi-24s.

  30. #219
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    Pilots are entrusted with Diplomatic bags held in the cockpit with them, Could the weapons being placed in a "diplomatic bag" in this case?

  31. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Pilots are entrusted with Diplomatic bags held in the cockpit with them, Could the weapons being placed in a "diplomatic bag" in this case?
    It theoretically could, but you'd need to the diplomatic service of X country to take possession of them, stick them in, take it to the airport, and put it on a carrier that flew that nations flag - or was a close ally/client.

    I think the fundamental problem here is that the weapons weren't the problem that someone in DOD is making them out to be: you can take weapons on commercial flights (you need the carrier's permission of course), and I'm afraid that any diplomatic service in country will have just told the Irish to render the weapons inoperable, and to throw them in a river/dump truck/wet concrete.

    This weapons issue is only an issue - assuming it was, and I don't - because, guess what, the IG made it an issue. No one else would give a shit about a couple of rifles/pistols disappearing into the DRC as a side consequence of getting your people back.

    What do people think that the inevitable bribes paid are going to buy? Only a fool would think it would be cuddly toys for children.....

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  33. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Leaving their weapons in the care of a french unit remaining. Not ideal.
    Why not? They are secure and waiting for the next team to take them over?

  34. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Pilots are entrusted with Diplomatic bags held in the cockpit with them, Could the weapons being placed in a "diplomatic bag" in this case?
    What about the team that will replace them? Where are they going to get their weapons?

  35. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    What about the team that will replace them? Where are they going to get their weapons?
    There is no guarantee that the team to replace them will travel any time soon.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  36. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    There is no guarantee that the team to replace them will travel any time soon.
    They are on standby to go

  37. #225
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    Did RBB just express support for military airlift?

    Am I living in opposite world?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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