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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Lifting in any apc one at a time is not a good use of an air transport asset.
    Last time we went to an inland mission, we shipped the vehicles by sea to the nearest port and they went by road, on flatbed the rest of the way.
    The mistake that time was the people who provided the flatbed had no clue what they were doing.
    If time is not a luxury then airlift can often be the only option. It need not just be an APC, but could be a number of ISO containers, say a field hospital if we ever get one again.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Only Sweden (outside of NATO) has access to the C-17s in Hungary. They might offer but then again they do not have to support.
    The Strategic Airlift Capability Steering Board and the NATO Airlift Management make the decision not Sweden or the other PfP nation Finland who have SAC membership. As I said if there was a urgent request to get a few additional PIIHs to UNFIL SAC would be the first port of call channelled through UNFIL and it would be fairly unusual for them the SACSB to respond negatively in such a situation. SAC have supported airlift urgent requests ranging from Haiti through to Pakistan in addition to a number of UN operations. C-17 operators are pretty positive in giving assistance. For example Canada flew across the Pacific and got NZ firefighters and outsize equipment to the recent OZ bushfires.
    Last edited by Anzac; 14th May 2020 at 10:44.

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  4. #28
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    While the above is true, it fails to grasp the central truth that in a situation where Ireland needs urgent, military airlift to assist an overseas operation, it's quite likely that any potential donors will also be up to their eyeballs in taskings. Whatever problem Ireland is facing is very unlikely to be happening in a vacuum...

    This is why solid ownership/contracts/pooling is required, rather than ad hoc begging.

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  6. #29
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    The notion that we could charter spare civvy aircraft when required is, to my mind not a long term plan. This virus could see many operators going out of business, those remaining won't have spare aircraft parked up waiting for a random charter from IRLGOV. They'll be operating what they have in the most efficient and profitable manner. It'll be like getting a taxi on a bank holiday. They are scarce, they are busy, and you may have to wait quite a while to pay full price.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  8. #30
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    As mentioned above.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  10. #31
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    What sort of airlift capability are we looking at. Do we want or need purpose built Military Lifter such as C 130j/ KC390 or a convertible Passenger aircraft like A320 or Boeing 737. Which would be more usable/suitable

  11. #32
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    In the EU as a whole there is a lack of airlift and tanker capacity. A lot has been done over the past two decades but the gap is still large for the EU as a whole. Some countries such as France have traditionally had more capacity due to the frequent deployments. But the whole of eastern Europe is a airlift/tanker dessert. For smaller nations to cover all the types needed is often not within a reasonable budget and the utilisation would be low. That is why stating with some like minded countries a pool could be build, and in that pool there could be a mix so to best match the future needs. There might be a tactical airlifter C130/KC390/A400M as these are best for moving equipment and there could be smaller grey civil airfcraft for purely troop rotations. For the latter in order to help Airbus the Luftwaffe purchased 2 A320's last month, they have no idea what to do with them but something like that with a side cargo door could do multi-role-transport either moving troops or medevac.

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  13. #33
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    Well we have no need of a tanker, we could never have the capacity to airlift our hardware requirements to our UN commitments. And our troops fly on chartered civilian airliners, which is why I ask which is more suitable and or usable to Irelands deployments. Do we need dedicated airlift.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    Well we have no need of a tanker, we could never have the capacity to airlift our hardware requirements to our UN commitments. And our troops fly on chartered civilian airliners, which is why I ask which is more suitable and or usable to Irelands deployments. Do we need dedicated airlift.
    You have an UN deployment somewhere in central Africa, it is rainy season and the roads are out, the landing strip next to the base is in-op, how would you resupply the troops?

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  16. #35
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    The Taoiseach said today we need it, he has asked the CoS to look into it. That's good enough for me.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  18. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    You have an UN deployment somewhere in central Africa, it is rainy season and the roads are out, the landing strip next to the base is in-op, how would you resupply the troops?
    Of course dedicated airlift would be a great asset and some sort of capability is needed, but what I am asking what sort of airlift do we need. The casas have been used for trips to the Lebanon, but I don't know if they have been deployed tactically. I am sure the supply issue is looked into before deployment and arrangements made, also do we deploy as part of a multi national force with each country supplying various assets

  19. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The Taoiseach said today we need it, he has asked the CoS to look into it. That's good enough for me.
    Excellent timing with the casa up for replacement we might get a third 295 if that's the option

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  21. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by apc View Post
    Excellent timing with the casa up for replacement we might get a third 295 if that's the option
    Or it and a cheap Airbus someone is trying to sell

  22. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Or it and a cheap Airbus someone is trying to sell
    It's greedy but I wouldn't say no...

  23. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The Taoiseach said today we need it, he has asked the CoS to look into it. That's good enough for me.
    As he knows he is caretaker only, therefore has not got the same interests to keep happy, is he trying to do something for the good of the country, rather than the usual political motivation of "Whats in it for me?"
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  24. #41
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    PR stunt like mini trump, we are only at this game since the 60s , if we have no transport now forget it. real world

  25. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by zone 1 View Post
    PR stunt like mini trump, we are only at this game since the 60s , if we have no transport now forget it. real world
    It would only be a PR stunt if enough people in Ireland cared enough about it, since they don't why bother doing a PR stunt?

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  27. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    While the above is true, it fails to grasp the central truth that in a situation where Ireland needs urgent, military airlift to assist an overseas operation, it's quite likely that any potential donors will also be up to their eyeballs in taskings. Whatever problem Ireland is facing is very unlikely to be happening in a vacuum...
    If it is under a UNSC mandate for example UNFIL the request goes through the appointed UN Commander who has ultimate responsibility and control of what goes in or out. An urgent shortage of equipment for example in UNFIL is not technically "Irelands" problem but "UNFIL's" problem. It would be indeed extraordinary if something was not done to help. Yes you may not get a European response as they could all be tied up, but there have been a number of times over the last 40 years that the RAAF and RNZAF transports have gone up into Africa and the Middle East to support under resourced UN humanitarian and peacekeeping missions. The Canadians are the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    This is why solid ownership/contracts/pooling is required, rather than ad hoc begging.
    The only way one can do their own job the way one wants it to be is to have ones own tools.
    Last edited by Anzac; 15th May 2020 at 01:37.

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  29. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    There might be a tactical airlifter C130/KC390/A400M as these are best for moving equipment and there could be smaller grey civil airfcraft for purely troop rotations. For the latter in order to help Airbus the Luftwaffe purchased 2 A320's last month
    No doubt you have also picked up that Portugal has ordered Five KC-390's which are a very good all-rounder aircraft that can cover the tactical and strategic role. It uses the IAE V2500-E5 which is on the A321 of which there are a number floating around for sale or lease due to CV19 and now possesses a STC for P2F conversion.

    The A321 even unconverted the lower deck holds ten LD3-45 which is a fairly decent capacity for logistics support in the interim - if the main deck is converted up to 14 standard NATO 463L's can be accommodated. In Dublin Aerospace you have a first class firm in town to support it under contract.

    An option to investigate would be to Lease/Buy a used 8-12 year old A321 asap (taking note of its C Check status) and in the interim look to where things are with tacking onto the end of the Portugal order of a couple of KC-390's circa 2027 which uses the IAE V2500-E5 as commonality of engine is a huge cost saver over time viz support & training (If there is the appetite politically at that time to spend quite a few hundred million euro even for just two - which many of you doubt) or buy another A321 and P2F convert both of them - which is a lot more affordable than a specialist medium airlifter. Tactical loads and pax strategic distances - outsized loads by sea. To have a 365 day 24/7 capability you need a minimum of two.

    Why not an A320-200? If you could get by with just using ULD's in the lower deck for freight (again much better than nothing) a vanilla good condition used A320 would be a good step up from where things are now. However, the A321 is said to be very straight forward airframe to convert P2F than the older A320 which has to have its attitude sensor shifted. This is not as easy as it seems and of course following the issues with the 73Max a bit more on the brave scale. There is also a bit more main deck reinforcing required on the A320 than the A321. It all comes down to cost - but there are a range of good options from just a few million Euro through to hundreds of millions. If there was a time to go down the twin commercial route as a basis for IAC air mobility - it is very much a buyers market. Even a leased A320-200 as an interim Capability Development airframe would be an easy step to kick things, easier if IAC Lear pilots are negotiated access to the A320 sims at Dublin Airport.

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  31. #45
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    I have to say that the thoughts of a 320/21 are off the wall, yes you can probably buy a nice used one or ten now for smallish money but the running costs and complexity to operate in support terms are a couple of steps up from where the AC is.

    I am sure there are many ACMI/commercial operators with 320/737 aircraft that can fill that mission more efficiently then the AC could.

    Brilliant aircraft that the 320 series is it is not a tactical/strategic transporter. You need paved runways, ground support equipment for loading and unloading and you can't drop anything from it.

    IMHO we need a capability you can't get at 12hrs notice on the ACMI market, and I believe If is doesn't have a ramp it shouldn't even be in the conversation.

    There are viable options.. e.g. piggy back on the Portuguese KC-390 order, they are even getting a sim.

    Or look at the C-130J's that are now on the market. In an AC operating context, where the aircraft will be primarily used in a more benign environment, then the previous owners(RAF), they should have at least 20 years left in them, while still retaining the huge capability that has been proven.

    New Build C-130 under FMS

    Reconditioned C-130H under FMS

    Money no object A-400!

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  33. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    I have to say that the thoughts of a 320/21 are off the wall, yes you can probably buy a nice used one or ten now for smallish money but the running costs and complexity to operate in support terms are a couple of steps up from where the AC is.
    If you read it properly you will see that I clearly stated that the depot support could and should be done locally under contract at Dublin Aerospace as there is no capacity to do it at the Don. It is normal practice in many airforces to contract in services.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    I am sure there are many ACMI/commercial operators with 320/737 aircraft that can fill that mission more efficiently then the AC could.
    They own them and control their use - so back to square one in mission independence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Brilliant aircraft that the 320 series is it is not a tactical/strategic transporter. You need paved runways, ground support equipment for loading and unloading and you can't drop anything from it.

    IMHO we need a capability you can't get at 12hrs notice on the ACMI market, and I believe If is doesn't have a ramp it shouldn't even be in the conversation.
    Most airforces have both a commercial type and at least a medium twin. An A321 is in the same class a B757 and used in the strategic role.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    There are viable options.. e.g. piggy back on the Portuguese KC-390 order, they are even getting a sim.

    Or look at the C-130J's that are now on the market. In an AC operating context, where the aircraft will be primarily used in a more benign environment, then the previous owners(RAF), they should have at least 20 years left in them, while still retaining the huge capability that has been proven.

    New Build C-130 under FMS

    Reconditioned C-130H under FMS

    Money no object A-400!
    Sorry but you cannot have it both ways and say that an A320 is too complex and expensive to run for the IAC to operate (which local firm Dublin Aerospace can do for you) and then turn around and want new build C-130J's and KC-390 the like or God forbid a reconditioned C-130H which I can tell you from RNZAF experience cost millions per year per airframe in spare parts that are no longer produced and getting harder to find.

    BTW - the RAF C-130J if when they come available will require a centre box replacement and you will have to wait to 2030 before they are released for FMS.

    And you make accusations of an A320 purchase being off the wall?

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  35. #47
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    Yes we have (ab)used the CASAs for resupply missions but just because it can be done does not mean it should be. They are filled with a lot of equipment for the primary maritime patrol mission and having them do resupply missions is like taking a MOWAG down to SuperValue to get some messages.

    We have discussed holding onto the 2 CN-235 aircraft when the new C-295's arrive, but they too would have limitations. Currently we want to rotate 352 troops from UNIFIL, even if we removed all the MPA equipment that would most likely take 10 flights. We could do a shuttle between Beirut and Akrotiri with a Aer Fungus/Ryanair charter back to the Don, but less than ideal.

    The Embraer (K)C-390 is interesting, not only has Portugal order 5 (they make some parts) but there was interest from Czech Air Force and Hungarian Air Force. And as part of the original negotiation with Sweden there was the idea of Sweden replacing their C-130's with KC-390's if the JAS-39 won in Brazil. The latter went very cold and nothing has been heard recently. However with all the chaos recently there might be movement, with Boeing dumping Embraer at the last minute this has left Embraer in a difficult situation. Maybe there will be renewed pressure on Sweden to take some KC-390's.

  36. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzac View Post
    If you read it properly you will see that I clearly stated that the depot support could and should be done locally under contract at Dublin Aerospace as there is no capacity to do it at the Don. It is normal practice in many airforces to contract in services.

    They own them and control their use - so back to square one in mission independence.

    Most airforces have both a commercial type and at least a medium twin. An A321 is in the same class a B757 and used in the strategic role.

    Sorry but you cannot have it both ways and say that an A320 is too complex and expensive to run for the IAC to operate (which local firm Dublin Aerospace can do for you) and then turn around and want new build C-130J's and KC-390 the like or God forbid a reconditioned C-130H which I can tell you from RNZAF experience cost millions per year per airframe in spare parts that are no longer produced and getting harder to find.

    BTW - the RAF C-130J if when they come available will require a centre box replacement and you will have to wait to 2030 before they are released for FMS.

    And you make accusations of an A320 purchase being off the wall?
    Agree with your points, however the air forces that have the 757 or equivalent transport aircraft already have the C-130 class aircraft.

    This is the capability that I believe the DF needs.

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  38. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie252 View Post
    Agree with your points, however the air forces that have the 757 or equivalent transport aircraft already have the C-130 class aircraft.

    This is the capability that I believe the DF needs.
    this really - the capability the DF needs is precisely the one that you can't hire from NetJets or wherever: its the capability to go to some unpaved hellhole in Mali or Chad with bullets, fuel and spare parts, its the ability to go to Beruit or Tripoli airport when no commercial carrier will go there.

    the same logic applies to a blue-green logistics/whatever vessel - if you need to take HADR to an earthquake/typhoon wrecked island, then no, the port infrastructure won't work, and no, the airport won't work: thats kind of the point - if this stuff worked then you wouldn't need to go there in the first place....

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  40. #50
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    Surely if you are rotating 352 troops 2/3 times a year it makes sense to charter civilian aircraft even if you have military transport. I can imagine travelling those sort of distances is more comfortable on airliners . Most regular long distance Troop transfers these days are done on Airliners either chartered or operated by the military. And besides the "emergency" airdrop or supply of an extra MOWAG do we need a C130J type aircraft. As Anzac proposed an A321 would be far more usable

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