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  • #31
    What sort of airlift capability are we looking at. Do we want or need purpose built Military Lifter such as C 130j/ KC390 or a convertible Passenger aircraft like A320 or Boeing 737. Which would be more usable/suitable

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    • #32
      In the EU as a whole there is a lack of airlift and tanker capacity. A lot has been done over the past two decades but the gap is still large for the EU as a whole. Some countries such as France have traditionally had more capacity due to the frequent deployments. But the whole of eastern Europe is a airlift/tanker dessert. For smaller nations to cover all the types needed is often not within a reasonable budget and the utilisation would be low. That is why stating with some like minded countries a pool could be build, and in that pool there could be a mix so to best match the future needs. There might be a tactical airlifter C130/KC390/A400M as these are best for moving equipment and there could be smaller grey civil airfcraft for purely troop rotations. For the latter in order to help Airbus the Luftwaffe purchased 2 A320's last month, they have no idea what to do with them but something like that with a side cargo door could do multi-role-transport either moving troops or medevac.

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      • #33
        Well we have no need of a tanker, we could never have the capacity to airlift our hardware requirements to our UN commitments. And our troops fly on chartered civilian airliners, which is why I ask which is more suitable and or usable to Irelands deployments. Do we need dedicated airlift.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by apc View Post
          Well we have no need of a tanker, we could never have the capacity to airlift our hardware requirements to our UN commitments. And our troops fly on chartered civilian airliners, which is why I ask which is more suitable and or usable to Irelands deployments. Do we need dedicated airlift.
          You have an UN deployment somewhere in central Africa, it is rainy season and the roads are out, the landing strip next to the base is in-op, how would you resupply the troops?

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          • #35
            The Taoiseach said today we need it, he has asked the CoS to look into it. That's good enough for me.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
              You have an UN deployment somewhere in central Africa, it is rainy season and the roads are out, the landing strip next to the base is in-op, how would you resupply the troops?
              Of course dedicated airlift would be a great asset and some sort of capability is needed, but what I am asking what sort of airlift do we need. The casas have been used for trips to the Lebanon, but I don't know if they have been deployed tactically. I am sure the supply issue is looked into before deployment and arrangements made, also do we deploy as part of a multi national force with each country supplying various assets

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              • #37
                Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                The Taoiseach said today we need it, he has asked the CoS to look into it. That's good enough for me.
                Excellent timing with the casa up for replacement we might get a third 295 if that's the option

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by apc View Post
                  Excellent timing with the casa up for replacement we might get a third 295 if that's the option
                  Or it and a cheap Airbus someone is trying to sell

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    Or it and a cheap Airbus someone is trying to sell
                    It's greedy but I wouldn't say no...

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      The Taoiseach said today we need it, he has asked the CoS to look into it. That's good enough for me.
                      As he knows he is caretaker only, therefore has not got the same interests to keep happy, is he trying to do something for the good of the country, rather than the usual political motivation of "Whats in it for me?"
                      'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                      'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                      Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                      He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                      http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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                      • #41
                        PR stunt like mini trump, we are only at this game since the 60s , if we have no transport now forget it. real world

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by zone 1 View Post
                          PR stunt like mini trump, we are only at this game since the 60s , if we have no transport now forget it. real world
                          It would only be a PR stunt if enough people in Ireland cared enough about it, since they don't why bother doing a PR stunt?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                            While the above is true, it fails to grasp the central truth that in a situation where Ireland needs urgent, military airlift to assist an overseas operation, it's quite likely that any potential donors will also be up to their eyeballs in taskings. Whatever problem Ireland is facing is very unlikely to be happening in a vacuum...
                            If it is under a UNSC mandate for example UNFIL the request goes through the appointed UN Commander who has ultimate responsibility and control of what goes in or out. An urgent shortage of equipment for example in UNFIL is not technically "Irelands" problem but "UNFIL's" problem. It would be indeed extraordinary if something was not done to help. Yes you may not get a European response as they could all be tied up, but there have been a number of times over the last 40 years that the RAAF and RNZAF transports have gone up into Africa and the Middle East to support under resourced UN humanitarian and peacekeeping missions. The Canadians are the same.

                            Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                            This is why solid ownership/contracts/pooling is required, rather than ad hoc begging.
                            The only way one can do their own job the way one wants it to be is to have ones own tools.
                            Last edited by Anzac; 15 May 2020, 02:37.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              There might be a tactical airlifter C130/KC390/A400M as these are best for moving equipment and there could be smaller grey civil airfcraft for purely troop rotations. For the latter in order to help Airbus the Luftwaffe purchased 2 A320's last month
                              No doubt you have also picked up that Portugal has ordered Five KC-390's which are a very good all-rounder aircraft that can cover the tactical and strategic role. It uses the IAE V2500-E5 which is on the A321 of which there are a number floating around for sale or lease due to CV19 and now possesses a STC for P2F conversion.

                              The A321 even unconverted the lower deck holds ten LD3-45 which is a fairly decent capacity for logistics support in the interim - if the main deck is converted up to 14 standard NATO 463L's can be accommodated. In Dublin Aerospace you have a first class firm in town to support it under contract.

                              An option to investigate would be to Lease/Buy a used 8-12 year old A321 asap (taking note of its C Check status) and in the interim look to where things are with tacking onto the end of the Portugal order of a couple of KC-390's circa 2027 which uses the IAE V2500-E5 as commonality of engine is a huge cost saver over time viz support & training (If there is the appetite politically at that time to spend quite a few hundred million euro even for just two - which many of you doubt) or buy another A321 and P2F convert both of them - which is a lot more affordable than a specialist medium airlifter. Tactical loads and pax strategic distances - outsized loads by sea. To have a 365 day 24/7 capability you need a minimum of two.

                              Why not an A320-200? If you could get by with just using ULD's in the lower deck for freight (again much better than nothing) a vanilla good condition used A320 would be a good step up from where things are now. However, the A321 is said to be very straight forward airframe to convert P2F than the older A320 which has to have its attitude sensor shifted. This is not as easy as it seems and of course following the issues with the 73Max a bit more on the brave scale. There is also a bit more main deck reinforcing required on the A320 than the A321. It all comes down to cost - but there are a range of good options from just a few million Euro through to hundreds of millions. If there was a time to go down the twin commercial route as a basis for IAC air mobility - it is very much a buyers market. Even a leased A320-200 as an interim Capability Development airframe would be an easy step to kick things, easier if IAC Lear pilots are negotiated access to the A320 sims at Dublin Airport.

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                              • #45
                                I have to say that the thoughts of a 320/21 are off the wall, yes you can probably buy a nice used one or ten now for smallish money but the running costs and complexity to operate in support terms are a couple of steps up from where the AC is.

                                I am sure there are many ACMI/commercial operators with 320/737 aircraft that can fill that mission more efficiently then the AC could.

                                Brilliant aircraft that the 320 series is it is not a tactical/strategic transporter. You need paved runways, ground support equipment for loading and unloading and you can't drop anything from it.

                                IMHO we need a capability you can't get at 12hrs notice on the ACMI market, and I believe If is doesn't have a ramp it shouldn't even be in the conversation.

                                There are viable options.. e.g. piggy back on the Portuguese KC-390 order, they are even getting a sim.

                                Or look at the C-130J's that are now on the market. In an AC operating context, where the aircraft will be primarily used in a more benign environment, then the previous owners(RAF), they should have at least 20 years left in them, while still retaining the huge capability that has been proven.

                                New Build C-130 under FMS

                                Reconditioned C-130H under FMS

                                Money no object A-400!

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