Thanks Thanks:  97
Likes Likes:  258
Dislikes Dislikes:  3
Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 100 of 225
  1. #76
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,424
    Post Thanks / Like
    Is a C-295 the solution to the all our airlift needs? No
    Is a C-295 better than nothing? Yes

    The C-295 is a small tactical airlifter, it is good for moving 436L pallets and troops over short distances. The Spanish will say it take a Vamtac but that is really pushing it and the range drops dramatically. To rotate troops out of Lebanon would take more than a week using a C-295. It would be good as a start to train with, to start to develop operational procedures etc.

  2. Likes DeV, Charlie252, Anzac liked this post
  3. #77
    Lt Colonel
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,038
    Post Thanks / Like
    If you want to develop procedures, dip your toe in experience and doctrine, and see what would work for Ireland , then send some of your people on secondment to (for example) the French Air Force - there are a number of European air forces with a mix of smaller tactical to larger tactical/strategic airlift platforms, put your people in those airlift systems for a year, let them observe and learn lessons, then come back, have a conversation about what would work and what wouldn't, and go from there.

    We also, repeatedly, come back to this issue of the filling of this or that immediate capability gap with little thought to what environments and operations that same platform may or will need to undertake 5, 10, 20 or 30 years after this immediate gap has been plugged - does anyone, for example, think that in 2035 the NS and wider defence and foreign policy stakeholders will think that half the NS's fleet not having a flight deck and with still another 10/15 years of service left is a really good thing, and that they will be writing papers on how the decision to not have flight decks on the P60 class was a far sighted plan of genius?

  4. Thanks Anzac thanked for this post
    Likes Tempest liked this post
  5. #78
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,424
    Post Thanks / Like
    We have already made an agreement with the RAAF to have some pilots (2 initially) go to do multi-engine training with them. If they got to do some time on a C27J or C130J that would be great. But when it comes to development of procedures we are talking about the DF in total. Be it from simple familiarization training for troops to things like how to load pallets for air drops and how to co-ordinate such drops. Clearly exchanges with other nations such as Australia and France will help speed this but there will still need to be a lot of work at home, even if it is only flying safely at low level in Irish weather!

  6. Likes Anzac liked this post
  7. #79
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,424
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    We also, repeatedly, come back to this issue of the filling of this or that immediate capability gap with little thought to what environments and operations that same platform may or will need to undertake 5, 10, 20 or 30 years after this immediate gap has been plugged - does anyone, for example, think that in 2035 the NS and wider defence and foreign policy stakeholders will think that half the NS's fleet not having a flight deck and with still another 10/15 years of service left is a really good thing, and that they will be writing papers on how the decision to not have flight decks on the P60 class was a far sighted plan of genius?
    This goes to the heart of all discussions about what the DF should be and how they should be equipped. A long, long, long time ago, before Covid, feels like 10,000BC now during the General Election there was a proposal to have a proper defence consultation/review, now yes the GP did not have anything on defence but hopefully FFG will keep that promise even if it is a little later than originally planned.

  8. #80
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    1,772
    Post Thanks / Like
    Great fecking article:
    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/...0m-999986.html
    First a random picture of a fighter when that's not what's being talked about, and then complaints that 10 million is too much to pay...**** me!

  9. #81
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,424
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Great fecking article:
    https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/...0m-999986.html
    First a random picture of a fighter when that's not what's being talked about, and then complaints that 10 million is too much to pay...**** me!
    It is all over the place now, "10m to fleece the nation", a variety of nations we can purchase from, and that from a "defence expert"!

  10. #82
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    1,772
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    It is all over the place now, "10m to fleece the nation", a variety of nations we can purchase from, and that from a "defence expert"!
    Yep, the business post has the same article with a picture of a C130 and that it's being considered... for 10 million? Unless they dropped a zero it sure as feck isn't.

  11. #83
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    22,928
    Post Thanks / Like

  12. Likes EUFighter liked this post
  13. #84
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    1,772
    Post Thanks / Like
    What ****ing cargo plane does Cathal think can be bought for 10 million in flying condition?

  14. #85
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,176
    Post Thanks / Like
    Given the detail the examiner report goes into, the detail of cathal's quote may have been lost somewhere.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  15. #86
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    1,772
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Given the detail the examiner report goes into, the detail of cathal's quote may have been lost somewhere.
    Looking at that post of the Sunday business post I don’t think he was.

  16. #87
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    6,924
    Post Thanks / Like
    with regard to loading of things like Casas, does the AC even do loadmasters or load supervisors?

  17. #88
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,424
    Post Thanks / Like
    Really the only source of relatively quick deliverable tactical airlifter is the USAF boneyard, the youngest C-130E they have is from 1972 while the youngest C-130H is 1992. Poland took 5 C-130E's about 10 years ago, for around $20m per aircraft with another $11m refurbishment each. So the minimum for a 30-40yr old C-130 into service is around $30m or same as a new build C-295.

    The RAF did get rid of some of their C-130J's a while back but they were snapped up by Bangladesh after France signaled that the asking price was far too high; $650m!!!

  18. #89
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,176
    Post Thanks / Like
    Doesn't any purchase from the US or AMARC come with a bucketload of red tape also, given we are not in NATO?
    Slovac AF arrived in Dublin last week to repatriate its citizens in a C160 type. Would that offer much advantage over a C295 in terms of Range?
    What about leasing until we decide how much we are willing to spend?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  19. #90
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    186
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    with regard to loading of things like Casas, does the AC even do loadmasters or load supervisors?
    Starting to show how long you are gone now.

    Yes they do. You hardly think they just throw a load of gear into the aircraft, strap it down and fly off and hope for the best do you? Although given how much you pontificate about how badly everything was done in the Air Corps, maybe you do.

    The one issue that is being lost in the noise of all of this is buying a single aircraft of one type is rarely a good idea. The basics indicate that if you need a minimum of three to ensure availability of at least one.

    The very best the Air Corps can do out of this is an extra utility 295, bringing the total to three. With the first MPA version arriving circa 2022, the Gov would have to beg some nation who already have one nearing the end of the production line to provide their one, perhaps with a bonus payment of a couple of million for the inconvenience.

    The cynic in me is highly suspect of the whole sentiment. The Taoiseach has resided as Defense Minister for some time now yet the only acknowledgement of lack of airlift has come when the issue of the two officers in DRC and the troops in Lebanon start appearing on the paper. Throw the dogs a bone and that'll distract them for a while is a proven political strategy. Certainly anything who is imagining a picture of C130/KC390 and even a 320/737 type with an Air Corps roundel on it is delusional.

    The optimist points to the recent acquisition of the PC12. A purchase that was not planned or intended for the DF and was very opportunistic in nature which is so far at the opposite end of the DoD modus operandi that its hard to fathom. €4-5m was found and funded with very little fuss it seems. €10m to jump into the front of the production line for a 295 sounds a lot more reasonable than purchasing a clapped out C130.

    Maybe the penny is dropping that purchasing military equipment isn't political suicide.

  20. #91
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,176
    Post Thanks / Like
    There will be a half hour of outrage on the phone in shows, people will spout nonsense, an expert will give his educated views, the presenter will get bored of the topic, as will the listeners, and its forgotten. A week later a letter will appear in the times written by an ex colonel in the air corps who was responsible for changing the tv in the officers mess from b&w to colour explaining why he thinks it's a bad idea.
    And everyone moves on.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  21. #92
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    186
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    There will be a half hour of outrage on the phone in shows, people will spout nonsense, an expert will give his educated views, the presenter will get bored of the topic, as will the listeners, and its forgotten. A week later a letter will appear in the times written by an ex colonel in the air corps who was responsible for changing the tv in the officers mess from b&w to colour explaining why he thinks it's a bad idea.
    And everyone moves on.
    That's it in a nutshell.

    It's easier to spin (justify) a purchase or commitment such as this now, whilst there is so much focus on the pandemic. Not that I think it will happen but now is an opportune moment, certainly from a justification perspective.

    As always, most reasoned citizens would support the concept of a national airlift capability, within reason of course, and go quietly about their business. The problem is the loud minority. But as you say, it'll be last weeks news in a couple of days time.

    It's like the Russian bear flights. News coverage for 2/3 days and then forgotten.

    That's what has me suspect about the Taoiseachs comments. A throwaway remark, feigning interest and asking the COS to do some investigatory work on the topic. Job done. Ball passed. Onto the next topic of business.
    Last edited by Chuck; 17th May 2020 at 20:20.

  22. Thanks EUFighter thanked for this post
    Likes CTU, Flamingo liked this post
  23. #93
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,424
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Doesn't any purchase from the US or AMARC come with a bucketload of red tape also, given we are not in NATO?
    Slovac AF arrived in Dublin last week to repatriate its citizens in a C160 type. Would that offer much advantage over a C295 in terms of Range?
    What about leasing until we decide how much we are willing to spend?
    I would have thought it was a C27J, as that is what the Slovak AF have. The only countries operating the C-160 are France and Germany. The comparison between the C27J and the C-295 is one you do not want to go into.

  24. #94
    C/S CTU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,222
    Post Thanks / Like
    If 2x C295 MPA cost €221.6 Million, which a number of people consider a bit on the High side, I wonder what deal they would have got if they ordered 3x MPA and 2x Transport?
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed!
    I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

  25. #95
    Brigadier General
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,645
    Post Thanks / Like
    Just to put some reality into this all.
    The last rotation to Lebanon was in an A330, the one before that was in a 787 Dreamliner.
    These are large wide-body airliners that lifted 50% of a Battalion at a time with all their baggage, spread over two chalks.
    That's the size of aircraft that is needed for Battalion rotations. Even a C-17 is too small to do that and Baldonnel is to small for an A330 or 787. So forget it.
    A third C295 or a G4 replacement is the only realistic possibility and that is a very long shot.

    The problem with Lebanon is not aircraft anyway and RHIA is still operating flights, the problem is the decision by the UN SG to suspended troop rotations.

    The problem with the Congo is the usual DoD bureaucratic penny-pinching bullshit that prevented the Air Corps from repatting them with the Learjet.

  26. Thanks EUFighter, DeV thanked for this post
    Likes CTU, DeV, Flamingo liked this post
  27. #96
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,424
    Post Thanks / Like
    Just a thought but Airbus (CASA) have 3x C295 test aircraft.
    S001 (EC-295) is the one they use for MPA and have modified once for AEW.
    S002 (EC-296) which they modified to a C-295W and recently have used to demonstrate it as a tanker.
    S166 (EC-025) which they dress up as an gunship for Dubai Air Show.

    Just perhaps they could be convinced to lease EC-025 until a new production aircraft is available in about 2 years, probably before the MPA versions arrive.
    It would be a bit difficult to jump to the front of the line as the majority of currently in the production process are for Canada and will have the necessary modification made for that customer. Next in line will be the Czechs who ordered some transport versions at the same time we ordered the MPA version. The Czechs should get their aircraft in first half of 2021.
    Last edited by EUFighter; 17th May 2020 at 21:17.

  28. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
  29. #97
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,424
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    If 2x C295 MPA cost €221.6 Million, which a number of people consider a bit on the High side, I wonder what deal they would have got if they ordered 3x MPA and 2x Transport?
    The cost is not just for the aircraft, there is a whole package tied up with it, training, GSE, spares, support etc.
    A bog standard C-295 transporter costs less, more the $30-35m region.

  30. #98
    C/S CTU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,222
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    The cost is not just for the aircraft, there is a whole package tied up with it, training, GSE, spares, support etc.
    A bog standard C-295 transporter costs less, more the $30-35m region.
    As been mentioned on this board a number of times over the years, if you buy too few, you may end up paying more in the long run. I just wonder how much of a deference in the total cost would it have been?
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed!
    I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

  31. Likes DeV liked this post
  32. #99
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,424
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Doesn't any purchase from the US or AMARC come with a bucketload of red tape also, given we are not in NATO?
    Would be most likely less than the red tape we have to go though to get the PC12's back from the USA once they are fitted with all that nice ITAR equipment!

    And you do not have to be part of NATO, you have to be on teh good side of the Americans but they do sell AMARC aircraft to a lot of countries. For example when we where ordering our C295MPA aircraft Argentina was inking a contract for 4x P3C's to replace their worn out P3B's. Argentina is not part of NATO and is still militarily not on the best terms with one of the key NATO partners yet the Yanks approved the deal.

  33. #100
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,424
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    As been mentioned on this board a number of times over the years, if you buy too few, you may end up paying more in the long run. I just wonder how much of a deference in the total cost would it have been?
    If you are talking your proposed package of 3x C295MPA and 2x C295 transports, then the cost would be more like €360-400m (incl VAT).

    Update
    In 2006 Portugal order 5x C295MPA and 7x C295 transports for a cost of €350m, taking inflation into account that would be €435-465m.
    Last edited by EUFighter; 18th May 2020 at 14:55.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •