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  • so we know what the costs of having airlift are - expensive, and work your way up from there - so what are the costs of not having airlift?

    what does the constant tendering for commercial airlift cost in time and resources - and whats the actual cost of the contracts on top of that?

    whats the resources/readiness/availability cost of having units tied up in places you don't want them, and not where you do want them, because you're reliant on commercial carriers/other nations?

    whats the diplomatic/political/strategic cost to 'Ireland Inc' of every European country knowing that as soon as stuff goes downhill somewhere, they're going to get a begging letter from the Irish government asking for help? whats the diplomatic cost of this happening time and time again, with apparently no lessons being learned, and with apparently no shame being on display about asking for help yet again?

    whats the morale/retention/recruiting cost within the DF of blokes being stuck in some dump after their tour has ended because no airlift is available?

    doubtless these are more subjective figures than $/Flying Hour, but they are there....

    Comment


    • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
      EINN is even better at 10,495ft and there are all the MRO around to do the support.
      EINN was a designated Alternate for Concorde and the Space Shuttle apparently.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        EINN was a designated Alternate for Concorde and the Space Shuttle apparently.
        And is ok for joint civil/military operations until an civil aircraft has the type of emergency landing that puts the runway out of action for a period of time.
        It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
        It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
        It was a new age...It was the end of history.
        It was the year everything changed.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CTU View Post
          And is ok for joint civil/military operations until an civil aircraft has the type of emergency landing that puts the runway out of action for a period of time.
          Have you not got a bulldozer?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
            Have you not got a bulldozer?
            AAIU might have something to say about that
            It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
            It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
            It was a new age...It was the end of history.
            It was the year everything changed.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CTU View Post
              AAIU might have something to say about that
              There are 5 de-activated runways at Shannon; if you can use a beach as a landing strip then converting a de-activated runway should be a luxury. Good experience for remote deployment to the a--e of no-where.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by CTU View Post
                AAIU might have something to say about that
                50 blokes with rifles and a bulldozer, versus 2 blokes with clipboards.

                If timing is critical then you bulldoze it. If timing isn't critical you leave it there and wait - and if you can leave it and wait, then what's the problem with only the one runway?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                  There are 5 de-activated runways at Shannon; if you can use a beach as a landing strip then converting a de-activated runway should be a luxury. Good experience for remote deployment to the a--e of no-where.
                  Well if in the future The Government/Department decide to base fixed wing Air Corps assets in shannon, they might want to reactivate one of those runways just in case.
                  It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                  It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                  It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                  It was the year everything changed.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                    In the P2F conversion you take out all the PAX equipment , not just seats, but ballet, WC and most importantly the Oxygen system and Pax service units, you can't just slide in seats on rails without the other equipment.
                    There is a difference in converting a P2F, a Combi and a Quick Change.

                    Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                    If there were such a conversion for the 321/737 that would be interesting, but there currently isn't. Its questionable whether there is any commercial appetite for a QC narrow body.
                    You may find this interesting then Charlie - The 737 QC Combi.

                    In 2014, KF Aerospace developed the world's first Quick Change Combi B737-300Photos: Eduardo MuraokaTimelapse Video: Deon Nel (http://www.deonnelphotography...


                    And PEMCO is nearing the end of the STC process to do on the 73NG what the KF Aerospace have done on a 73Classic. Convert it into a QC Combi.

                    Are you familiar with the Boeing C-40 Clipper because that too is a QC Combi though built that way at Renton for the US military.

                    There seems to be a commercial market but we are talking about air mobility in the context of the Air Corps.

                    Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                    If a commercial operator picks up the tab and is using the same system, then the aircraft becomes a very viable option on cost grounds given the low prices of feed stock.
                    Bingo

                    Comment


                    • lease Shannon to the us military for transports and other shinny stuff, get what you need and as a bonus Luke 'Ming' Flanagan, Mick Wallace and Clare Daly would probably burst a blood vessel. I know it would never happen but could you see the uproar from them it would be worth it
                      Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

                      Comment


                      • New KC390 retails at $85m. Is it worth that? NZ got five C130J, plus 24 spare engines & other support, for $280 each. A400M retailing around €170m. Go big or go home?
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                        Comment


                        • i think the fundamental obsticle the KC-390 faces - and its is an excellent aircraft - is that if an Irish/pooled C-130/A400M turns up to any European/mult-national op/exercise (think Malta in the Libyan op, or the Med migrant crisis, or JW in Scotland, or an EUBG ex in Sweden or wherever), and goes tech, there will be immediate access to both C-130/A400M spares and tech crew. with a KC-390, thats not the case.

                          Embraer may well have an excellent reputation for support, but they simply won't be sitting around these places at 3am waiting for something to go wrong.
                          Last edited by ropebag; 18 May 2020, 18:51.

                          Comment


                          • Anzac, I am aware of the classic 737 QC Aircraft, in fact I have known plenty of guys who flew that aircraft with Europe Air post, they were used for Pax flying by day and freight for French post at night. Terrific aircraft but not many commercial operators were interested in that capability.

                            It was based on the 737 Classic.

                            As I said if a commercial option to have 321 QC or 737NG QC is available then it is a viable option to provide Air Lift for the DF going forward.

                            In my view it is not as good an option as a C-130 class aircraft.

                            C-40 seams to tick many of the boxes, its based on the -700 so smaller then a 321 or 737-800, but still a very capable machine.
                            Would be a reasonable option if they are for export and the price isn't outrageous.. Boeing Military have an elevated view of the value of their products and a customer that usually picks up the tab.

                            Any of these options doesn't get around the requirement for Ground Support equipment and runs into the DOD argument around charter etc.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                              i think the fundamental obsticle the KC-390 faces - and its is an excellent aircraft - is that if an Irish/pooled C-130/A400M turns up to any European/mult-national op/exercise (think Malta in the Libyan op, or the Med migrant crisis, or JW in Scotland, or an EUBG ex in Sweden or wherever), and goes tech, there will be immediate access to both C-130/A400M spares and tech crew. with a KC-390, thats not the case.

                              Embraer may well have an excellent reputation for support, but they simply won't be sitting around these places at 3am waiting for something to go wrong.
                              There is something but the KC-390 is the new kid on the block and that will always be the case with a new kid. It does have a big advantage over the C-130/A400M in that many of its parts are COTS and thus more widely available than some parts on the others. Take the engines for example, at how many airports will you find a TP-400, its gearbox or propellor? The support for the V2500 on the other hand is much more widely available. The cockpit avionics are the Pro Line Fusion range which if I remember correctly are the same as in the C-295 that we will be getting. So again a COTS system widely available and with a great support network.

                              Its more modern design is also less likely to go U/S and is likely to be more easily repaired as they have carried over many of the requirements from the civil aircraft which operate with 99.5% dispatch reliability, I think the A400M has ever reached 50%, but I could be mistaken. And is the support there for the others, try getting anyone on the phone from Europrop after 4pm, good-luck. Around 3 years ago the then Defense Minister von der Leyen (now President) was visiting troops in Lithuania with an A400M, it had a small oil leak in one engine, what happen? She had to get a C160 Transall to fly home with and the A400M took several days before it could return due to lack of support.

                              If we were part of a group buying a number of aircraft then that is much different than if we were the lone user. But today Portugal has ordered 5, the Czechs have interest in 2 mainly as Aero Vodochody make the aft fuselage and so would be supporting local industry. The question is if others like Sweden or Austria would be interested to replace their C-130's from the Stoneage. But that is if the KC390 was a chosen solution.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Charlie252 View Post
                                Anzac, I am aware of the classic 737 QC Aircraft, in fact I have known plenty of guys who flew that aircraft with Europe Air post, they were used for Pax flying by day and freight for French post at night. Terrific aircraft but not many commercial operators were interested in that capability.

                                It was based on the 737 Classic.

                                As I said if a commercial option to have 321 QC or 737NG QC is available then it is a viable option to provide Air Lift for the DF going forward.

                                In my view it is not as good an option as a C-130 class aircraft.

                                C-40 seams to tick many of the boxes, its based on the -700 so smaller then a 321 or 737-800, but still a very capable machine.
                                Would be a reasonable option if they are for export and the price isn't outrageous.. Boeing Military have an elevated view of the value of their products and a customer that usually picks up the tab.

                                Any of these options doesn't get around the requirement for Ground Support equipment and runs into the DOD argument around charter etc.
                                If and it is a big if that a new production C-40 would be available Boeing would be looking for at least $70m. Problem is the C-40 is a military version of the B737-700C which is no longer in production as they have moved from NG to MAX production. A ready made -700C at the moment on the second hand market is likely to be also expensive. So the option left would be to buy a -700 PAX and do a P2F conversion.

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