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  • #46
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    I was suggesting it as a possible use for the aircraft!

    If they DF want such an aircraft they have to “sell it” as being capable of supporting Ireland Inc
    Ropebag has a point, though. If the DF aren’t careful, if one does materialise it will be seen as being a branch of Irish Aid that happens to be manned by the Air Corps.

    That’s what happened to the helicopters, the public perceives them as being Air Ambulance first, bad weather delivery service for animal fodder and polling boxes second, and a military asset way down the line.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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    • #47
      Aer Corp Brill cream boys are more interested in getting as much hours up in their log books before they leave, and what better way they civi taxi contracts

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      • #48
        Originally posted by sofa View Post
        Aer Corp Brill cream boys are more interested in getting as much hours up in their log books before they leave, and what better way they civi taxi contracts
        Networking.
        There was quite a loud group think that said the AIII should have been retained on the strength for pure training purposes. There was nothing wrong with them, AFAIK from an airframe or avionics point of view, they were single engine, analog cockpit kludge, but the French are only just getting rid of theirs, and India still have their variants working frontline in the Himalayas.
        New pilots learn the joys of heli flying the old fashioned way, without FADEC to mind them, meanwhile the PBI get to learn about junping in and out of helis, Dropshorts get to learn about underslinging a 105 or its ammo, and a spare capacity for when the snow falls or the rain gets too wet.
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by sofa View Post
          Aer Corp Brill cream boys are more interested in getting as much hours up in their log books before they leave, and what better way they civi taxi contracts
          in which case, are you - and would you be - recruiting the wrong people?

          are people joining for the wrong reasons, or are they joining for the right reasons and getting quickly disillusioned with the AC's offer and just milking the airframes for licencing hours?

          if a career as aircrew in the AC offered the prospect of flying C-130's in the arctic and the desert, doing rough field landings and paradrops, would different people apply?

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          • #50
            People join for the right reasons, but 12 years later, You are a Captain/Sgt approaching your mid 30s, Married with 2.5 kids and you have to commute from Tullamore because that was the nearest affordable mortgage, the Joy of life in Baldonnel is no longer as much fun as it was, and you spend more time doing paperwork instead of flying, and here is a private company offering you double your current wage to fly saudi businessmen/fix their aircraft around Dubai for a few years, tax free.
            Priorities change.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
              Networking.
              There was quite a loud group think that said the AIII should have been retained on the strength for pure training purposes. There was nothing wrong with them, AFAIK from an airframe or avionics point of view, they were single engine, analog cockpit kludge, but the French are only just getting rid of theirs, and India still have their variants working frontline in the Himalayas.
              New pilots learn the joys of heli flying the old fashioned way, without FADEC to mind them, meanwhile the PBI get to learn about junping in and out of helis, Dropshorts get to learn about underslinging a 105 or its ammo, and a spare capacity for when the snow falls or the rain gets too wet.
              The AIII's cost a fortune in parts. Eurocopter wanted everyone to upgrade so jacked up the parts prices.

              Heard that a while after we retired ours, the Maltese rang up Baldonnell looking to find out if we had any parts left that we were willing to sell as Eurocoper were screwing them. Of course we'd flogged them by that stage. They later went on to buy the 139 as well.

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              • #52
                Back in the day,we wanted Alouette spares and asked Romania for some, to the fury of Aerospatiale, who reminded us of our contract and also sent a bollicking to the Romanians. Civvy Alouette operators are few and far between these days, because despite their undoubted utility, Bell parts are cheaper than Alouette parts and Bell would crawl over broken glass to sell you parts. Just as long as you don't fit Agusta-Bell parts to your Bell. Same with the Gazelle; civvies loved them until the eyewatering cost of spares nailed them and you weren't allowed to swap identical "military" parts to civvy airframes (SA 341 G comes to mind).

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                  Back in the day,we wanted Alouette spares and asked Romania for some, to the fury of Aerospatiale, who reminded us of our contract and also sent a bollicking to the Romanians. Civvy Alouette operators are few and far between these days, because despite their undoubted utility, Bell parts are cheaper than Alouette parts and Bell would crawl over broken glass to sell you parts. Just as long as you don't fit Agusta-Bell parts to your Bell. Same with the Gazelle; civvies loved them until the eyewatering cost of spares nailed them and you weren't allowed to swap identical "military" parts to civvy airframes (SA 341 G comes to mind).
                  It is a big difference no matter what you are trying to buy. Lets say we decide we need a Boeing 767 freighter, if we do a secret deal with Aer Fingus, no one should know it is far the DF, and they go off to Seattle what would be the outcome. Well first the cost of the aircraft would be around half of the list price, then would come the 24hr customer support, a spare supply package, training package. In the end they would have an offer for just over the half of the list price.

                  If on the other hand someone from DoD went out, the cost would be the list price. You want spares; that costs extra, you want some training; that costs extra, you want 24hr customer support; here are some dedicated Boeing contractors, ohh don't forget the toolkits and GSE you will need (even if a design criteria is not to need dedicated tools or GSE). In the end the cost is usually 2-3 times what the airline will have paid.

                  Why? Because industry knows the government guy doing the negotiation will not fight hard, sure he/she might say VFM etc but that when they gp back to their boss and say it was the best deal they could get it is accepted. The airline buyer on the other hand often have their salary linked to their performance. They have to bring home the bacon, if they do not, the best is they lose their performance pay, worst case is they are on the street. So god forbid you ever try to install a civvy part instead of a military part, even if the only thing different is the colour.
                  Last edited by EUFighter; 9 June 2020, 10:46.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ropebag View Post
                    the operation of recent times that - had airlift been available and organic - would have looked most different is Chad.

                    in a way however this idea of '+airlift..' is misleading, because airlift is such a game-changing asset/mindset that operations with airlift are conceptualised from fag-packet onwards in a fundamentally different way for operations without airlift. its a bit like playing 'cavemen with guns', when if cavemen had had guns, they wouldn't have been cavemen...

                    the immediate benefit that leaps to mind is the ease of accessing training opportunities - with a pair of C-130's it becomes very easy to send an Inf Coy to a two week exercise in Sweden or France, or a missile troop to the range at Benbecula for a week. the important thing, both for readiness/skill/experience, and for proving the utility, is that these trips aren't a 'once a year' things, they are a constant stream of smallish, low-level exercises with Irelands friends and partners.

                    this then has a positive impact all on its own - your crews become proficient at dealing with other air arms, going to weird and wonderful locations, and this is likely to have an impact on retention and recruitment: basically it becomes a more interesting, more challenging, more worthwile job, so people are less likely to want to leave.
                    That is exactly the point, it would be a fundamental game changer. The tasking request will increase well beyond what wevcan think of now.

                    The job satisfaction aspect is not to be underestimated, do you want to be a flying bus driver, flying the same routes each day, were most of the time it is FMS doing the actual flying. Or do you want to be landing on a semi prepared strip with no ILS? Do you want to do a steep tactical approach into potentially hot landing zone? Do you want to give the entire DoD, the minister of finance and the minister of state for defence collective heart attacks when you do a barrel roll at Bray Airshow? The latter alone would be a major recruitment/retention driver!

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                    • #55
                      I know enough of the 139 pilots that enjoyed doing the "troop hauling" stuff and getting down and dirty with the lads and doing what military helis are supposed to do. Others hated it. Equally, some of them loved the EAS stuff and others hated it. One guy had an abiding dislike of hospital helipads and would discourse at length about how shit they were yet would happily land on any sodden Gah pitch or off-piste site. Can't please everybody but that's the nature of the beast.

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                      • #56
                        Sure the AN225 was at Shannon today delivering 12.5 days supply (1 million) Of gowns for the HSE

                        We could have put in a Compulsory Purchase Order while she was on the ground


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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by DeV View Post
                          Sure the AN225 was at Shannon today delivering 12.5 days supply (1 million) Of gowns for the HSE

                          We could have put in a Compulsory Purchase Order while she was on the ground


                          https://twitter.com/paulreiddublin/s...459601408?s=21
                          Volga Dnepr had a number of AN124 based at Shannon for years and nobody even looked at them.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                          • #58
                            Er, hello! My original question was "what can you get for €10 million?". Not much it appears.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Smithy View Post
                              Er, hello! My original question was "what can you get for €10 million?". Not much it appears.
                              Buy into SAC?
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Smithy View Post
                                Er, hello! My original question was "what can you get for €10 million?". Not much it appears.
                                How about a "Strategic Multi-role Airlift Vessel"

                                It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                                It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                                It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                                It was the year everything changed.

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