Military transport aircraft

[GoneToTheCanner]

A similar turboprop to a PC-12 is housed in a hangar not a million miles from Dublin Airport and said hangar and hardstanding was built in a matter of days. You can do it quickly, if you want to. It didnt cost the earth, either. Not only that, they built another to house a well-known Flight of aircraft. Not mad money, either.

[Chuck]

In any situation if someone offers you anything extra, you take it with both hands and deal with the logistics after. Not in this case. The DCOS fell in line with what he was advised. Unfortunately you can't FOI the chats in the corridor in Newbridge.

And while it's not a direct comparison, the HSE spent €14m up front on ventilators which havent been received.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40191468.html

Pilatus had two aircraft ready to go for approx €5m each. €5m for a state asset that you will have for 20-25 years.

Could've been a handy state asset to leverage versus paying €16m for a 2 year air ambulance contract. Granted, I accept there are personnel considerations at play here aswell. Although, there are 10+ pilots who have taken a break from the airlines to mark time in the Air Corps. Could have been useful.

That contract will no doubt be awarded to a UK company again.

[Chuck]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/hse-will-spend-16m-on-air-ambulance-to-plug-gaps-in-emergency-service-39692207.html

€16 million would go a long way if spent correctly.

[DeV]

https://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-39378948.html

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6997587-Airplane-Purchase-Records.html

Chain of command:

DoD Sec Gen
DCOS Sp
GOC AC

Seems there was a strong drive to acquire two and then the narrative changed in line with the wishes of the SecGen.

Happy to read your version of events.

Chain of command more complex than that

[DeV]

In any situation if someone offers you anything extra, you take it with both hands and deal with the logistics after. Not in this case. The DCOS fell in line with what he was advised. Unfortunately you can't FOI the chats in the corridor in Newbridge.

And while it's not a direct comparison, the HSE spent €14m up front on ventilators which havent been received.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40191468.html

Pilatus had two aircraft ready to go for approx €5m each. €5m for a state asset that you will have for 20-25 years.

Could've been a handy state asset to leverage versus paying €16m for a 2 year air ambulance contract. Granted, I accept there are personnel considerations at play here aswell. Although, there are 10+ pilots who have taken a break from the airlines to mark time in the Air Corps. Could have been useful.

That contract will no doubt be awarded to a UK company again.

Unfortunately €4m a year extra for pay wouldn’t increase it massively across the board but having said that the pilot retention scheme cost less €1m annually

[EUFighter]

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/...-39692207.html

€16 million would go a long way if spent correctly.

Typical Irish government solution, lets get someone else to provide a service rather than tackling the underling problem; lack of a national helicopter EMS strategy. No attempts at generating a synergy, but more interfaces and more chances for things to go wrong.

To provide a proper 24/7 service a minimum of 2 aircraft are required and a minimum of 5 crews. The 2 as the first may go U/S or not be available when called upon and the 5 crews is pure maths, just like with the QRA. All three/four needs should be rolled into one contract with a single supplier, and if that is some form of national helicopter service then so be it. IMHO a fleet of 4x S-92s and 4x H-145s would do the job.

[na grohmiti]

Yet another demonstration (if it were needed) of the failure of the Government to recruit and retain pilots and aircrew in the Air Corps.

[DeV]

Yet another demonstration (if it were needed) of the failure of the Government to recruit and retain pilots and aircrew in the Air Corps.

In fairness, the need for the contract is a result of that failure (plus techs and ATC)

[DeV]

Typical Irish government solution, lets get someone else to provide a service rather than tackling the underling problem; lack of a national helicopter EMS strategy. No attempts at generating a synergy, but more interfaces and more chances for things to go wrong.

To provide a proper 24/7 service a minimum of 2 aircraft are required and a minimum of 5 crews. The 2 as the first may go U/S or not be available when called upon and the 5 crews is pure maths, just like with the QRA. All three/four needs should be rolled into one contract with a single supplier, and if that is some form of national helicopter service then so be it. IMHO a fleet of 4x S-92s and 4x H-145s would do the job.

Need minimum 5 x S92 for 4 SAR bases.

What’s your thinking 2 x EAS type bases ? If the S92 has more Air ambulance hours available (max hours specified in the contract) that could potentially be reduced to 1 base. Also it seems that the 139 is preferred to the 135 for EAS as it is larger and much more capable.

[GoneToTheCanner]

well, look at what the neighbours are using for EAS. It's all 135/145 variants, because of the need to operate in quite confined spaces. Would you risk it with a 139?

[EUFighter]

Need minimum 5 x S92 for 4 SAR bases.

What’s your thinking 2 x EAS type bases ? If the S92 has more Air ambulance hours available (max hours specified in the contract) that could potentially be reduced to 1 base. Also it seems that the 139 is preferred to the 135 for EAS as it is larger and much more capable.

I was thinking a more integrated approach,
Sligo 1x S92
Shannon 1x S92 active, 1x S92 back-up
Waterford 1x S92
Dublin 1x H145 active, 1 H145 back-up
Cork 1x H145
Athlone/Galway 1x H145

The S92s would have a primary SAR mission with a secondary EMS, while the H-145s would have EMS as primary with SAR as secondary. It need not be a H-145 but could be a A109 etc. All would be under one command structure with takes care of tasking for all helicopters. The S92s on the west coast where the range comes in more useful than on the east coast. I have put the H145 as it offers more room than the H135 but is still suitable for landing in built-up areas/residential areas. But it is just a proposal.

[DeV]

I was thinking a more integrated approach,
Sligo 1x S92
Shannon 1x S92 active, 1x S92 back-up
Waterford 1x S92
Dublin 1x H145 active, 1 H145 back-up
Cork 1x H145
Athlone/Galway 1x H145

The S92s would have a primary SAR mission with a secondary EMS, while the H-145s would have EMS as primary with SAR as secondary. It need not be a H-145 but could be a A109 etc. All would be under one command structure with takes care of tasking for all helicopters. The S92s on the west coast where the range comes in more useful than on the east coast. I have put the H145 as it offers more room than the H135 but is still suitable for landing in built-up areas/residential areas. But it is just a proposal.

For SAR it isn’t just range but also capacity (imagine a large ferry requiring a major evacuation), also if the West get a call and they have another call on going they can be tasked.

Why do they think 139 is better?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Medevac-Flying-Irish-Corps-Mission-ebook/dp/B082D82Y4H

Excellent read!

Range, more capacity, slightly faster and importantly more room to work on the patient

[EUFighter]

For SAR it isn’t just range but also capacity (imagine a large ferry requiring a major evacuation), also if the West get a call and they have another call on going they can be tasked.

If a large ferry needed helicopter evacuation all helicopters on both islands would be mobilised not just those tasked to a sector.
And as for the second scenario that is no different from today, if the Sligo helicopter is out on a mission say off Mayo and a call comes for an incident off Donegal either the Dublin or Shannon unit will respond. In any case the "National Emergency Helicopter Service" would have 6 helicopters to call upon 24/7 with a further 2 as back-ups.

It would be one unified command structure, island based not divided west vs east or north vs south.

[na grohmiti]

Drifting a long way from Military transport aircraft here though.

[EUFighter]

Drifting a long way from Military transport aircraft here though.

True, but we can see the same lack of a national strategic plan for the use of the state's resources. Let's take it a bit further, in the future we may end up having a lot more patient transfers to continental hospitals. For this the HSE has also had a plane on contract at Dublin. Yet again lack of joined up planning.

The PC-12 does have some capability to perform patient transfer missions and we will surely see them used more and more in this function. And when it comes to replacing the Learjet hopefully it will be with some swing-mission PC24s (2-3), being able to do the MATS roles as well as patient transfer. As we have seen again and again providing a 24/7 functions needs to have resources allocated to it, not just tacked and with the "make do" attitude. If the AC were to be asked to provide a 24/7 patient transfer using lets say the PC-12 fleet then the pilots, ground crew etc need to be there in the establishment to do that.

And talking of a strategic plan for transport aircraft even the likes of a C-130/C-390 should be included for emergency situations. But it should be the HSE turning up one morning at the Don and saying there is a need to move large numbers of patients. If there is something this year should have thought us is that there will be such cases. Some will be due to natural disasters such as earthquakes, man-made disasters like the explosion in Beirut or a pandemic affecting one country more than others.