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  • Originally posted by madmark View Post
    just wondering could the government sell the two casa 235 and put the money towards a 3rd casa 295m better to have them all the same type
    They could but given the market and their lack of any commercial negotiation skill I would not hold out the prospect of there being enough for the deposit!

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    • Originally posted by madmark View Post
      just wondering could the government sell the two casa 235 and put the money towards a 3rd casa 295m better to have them all the same type
      I thought we'd be retiring the 2 235s post haste?

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      • Thanks to all for a highly informative and tightly argued thread.

        Given that the runway constraints at Baldonnel have surfaced tangentially throughout, I thought to run some numbers.



        As far as I can see; the largest currently manufactured civilian airliner that could reliably operate, within standard parameters out of Baldonnel at MTOW, is an A220-100.

        With runway extension to 2,270m, including the standard minimum 20% margin, it would be an A220-300.

        Doubt if Airbus have current plans to offer a MRTT version of either.

        Edit: A318-100s would also be capable of MTOW operations, out of Baldonnel, after runway extension to 2,200m.
        Air France have 60 A220-300s on order to replace, among other things, their 18 A318-100s.
        For information only; the Embraer C-390 looks as if it was spec'd with Baldonnel in mind.


        Manufacturer's Information: Embraer C-390
        Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 15 November 2020, 02:18.

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        • Originally posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
          Thanks to all for a highly informative and tightly argued thread.

          Given that the runway constraints at Baldonnel have surfaced tangentially throughout, I thought to run some numbers.



          As far as I can see; the largest currently manufactured civilian airliner that could reliably operate, within standard parameters out of Baldonnel at MTOW, is an A220-100.

          With runway extension to 2,270m, including the standard minimum 20% margin, it would be an A220-300.

          Doubt if Airbus have current plans to offer a MRTT version of either.



          For information only; the Embraer C-390 looks as if it was spec'd with Baldonnel in mind.


          Manufacturer's Information: Embraer C-390
          The A-220 (C-Series) is new on the market and given their small size there is no plans or demand to make a MRTT version. On some Canadian Websites their were people proposing that they could be special missions aircraft but neither the Canadian Forces nor Bombardier ever had any such plans.

          As for the A-318 this was a niche aircraft which never sold well, only 80 were ever produced. A few that have been converted to Business jets will keep flying while the remained will be used for spares. Neither it nor its larger sibling the A-319 are suitable for cargo conversion as the distance from the forward door to the wing root is to small to fit a main deck cargo door.

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          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
            ... niche aircraft ...
            Not my intention to argue for these, rather to use them to illustrate constraints at The Don'.



            Regular A320-200 operation at MTOW requires runway(s) of 2,500m+, which gives the aircraft 5,500km/3,250nm maximum range.

            I'd only be upsetting people unnecessarily if I posted the comparable requirements for A321-200 or A330-MRTT.

            Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
            Neither [the A-318] nor its larger sibling the A-319 are suitable for cargo conversion as the distance from the forward door to the wing root is to small to fit a main deck cargo door.
            Thanks for that information, was blissfully unaware, underlines the point.
            Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 15 November 2020, 14:00.

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            • I'd argue that the AC should relocate if we were to acquire bigger and/or faster birds.

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              • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                I'd argue that the AC should relocate if we were to acquire bigger and/or faster birds.
                Shannon or Knock?
                'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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                • Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                  Shannon or Knock?
                  Shannon. Build a joint base with the NS.

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                  • Can at least one of the runways at the Don be extended? There seems to be ample farmland to the west of the base out towards Route 120 if a runway underpass was built in Aylmer Road and the business on it relocated elsewhere. Significantly cheaper than a new base.

                    Is there a national security clause in your Public Works Act? That usually does the trick for the government to get its way on land acquisition and management (last year used at RNZAF Auckland when the city council tried to stop the airforce night testing jet engines due to noise. Same council that allowed greenfields land near the air force base to be used as new residential housing from which these noise complaints came. Minister said Foxtrot Oscar to said council pulling the National Security clause, stating what were these folks expecting buying a house next to an air force base!

                    The RNZAF just spent a fair price $6m to acquire a farm to extend a runway at Ohakea so they can operate the P-8A at full MTOW.

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                    • Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                      Can at least one of the runways at the Don be extended? There seems to be ample farmland to the west of the base out towards Route 120 if a runway underpass was built in Aylmer Road and the business on it relocated elsewhere. Significantly cheaper than a new base.

                      Is there a national security clause in your Public Works Act? That usually does the trick for the government to get its way on land acquisition and management (last year used at RNZAF Auckland when the city council tried to stop the airforce night testing jet engines due to noise. Same council that allowed greenfields land near the air force base to be used as new residential housing from which these noise complaints came. Minister said Foxtrot Oscar to said council pulling the National Security clause, stating what were these folks expecting buying a house next to an air force base!

                      The RNZAF just spent a fair price $6m to acquire a farm to extend a runway at Ohakea so they can operate the P-8A at full MTOW.
                      Probably. but I submit that the area is too built up to host fast movers. Also, we'd want them further west.

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                      • Shannon has the room for parking, hangarage and the runways. No contest.

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                        • We have people here complaining about noise at our largest military training area, a place so steeped in military history, its nearby roads have been known as "Military road" since the 1700s. You should have known what you were getting into.
                          Shannon is ideal. Its already de-facto US military airbase anyway, more interesting visitors over the weekend. May as well put a guardroom there and go the whole hog. Would save the lads in the 1st and 12th a fortune in sandwiches if you put blue railings around part of it.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                          • The main problem is not lengthening the runways at the Don but the encroachment on the base by the development of Dublin. In the next years this will continue and might even accelerate if we get a lot of Brexit refugees from London! Even today there would be issues with noise and to the cost of extending the runways there would be the costs of new hangars etc.

                            Shannon was originally built by the Air Corp and it has struggled over the years since flight are no longer required to make a stop-over there. The investment in new hangars etc would be the same with the advantage that it might be possible to sub-contract work to local companies. A big advantage of moving some of the Air Corps to Shannon is the lower housing cost, which would make a big difference for many.

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                            • Never have been to Shannon but Mr Google Maps was useful in getting the lay of the land.

                              It looks like a cost effective solution as adjacent over on the NW side of the runway where there is already a Lufthansa facility there is plenty of space. A number of major airports are dual civil-military including Elgin USAF, Changi RSAF and Komaki JASDF. With ATC protocols in place it can work very well. Building a new air base in a new location would be fraught with NIMBY types not to mention the massive cost to do so.

                              In the 1990's the RNZAF closed down Wigram Air base which the city of Christchurch effectively built around its perimeter. Govt sold the land to developers and reduced operations were shifted to the nearby international airport (They typically then took the cash and spent the rest elsewhere and not on defence). However the option of the sale of the Don for development, and a reduced Air Movements facility set up at Dublin airport for MATS and the majority of the proceeds of the Don sale invested in a new purpose built facility to house the Air Corp at Shannon could be worth a business case study.

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                              • Combined with the chance of their offspring having a real chance of seeing their home team win at Hurling, Football AND rugby.
                                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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