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View Poll Results: What type of transport aircraft does the Air Corps need?

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  • Military transport aircraft such as C130J/A400M

    30 78.95%
  • Civilian airliner capable of carrying freight

    8 21.05%
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  1. #251
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    If you wanted to enlarge, you would have to consider the following: erase Weston as an active airfield. You can't entend the main runway in Baldonnel East to any great extent, if at all.
    You can't extend the short runway to any great extent, if at all, either end.
    You are now surrounded by industrial estates/housing/main routes/terrain to the extent that expansion is only possible to a viable amount to the West, so that brings in the problem of Weston and the growth of housing/industry to the West of the aerodrome. Obviously, this has implications for noise pollution,if you start putting aircraft over Lucan and environs at night. This also brings in consideration of security and the cost of improved fencing/ CCTV/patrolling/emergency access. Not insurmountable, of course, but it is an expensive business, just to fence off an airfield.

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  3. #252
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Does the approach for Weston cause problems for Baldonnel as is?

  4. #253
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    Yes and no. It's more to do with airspace considerations that actual infringements. Because of Weston's location, right at the bottom left hand corner of Dublin's Control Zone, right next to Baldonnel's, it's regarded as awkward. Always has been. They are only four miles apart, as the crow flies and the railway line is the effective visual boundary. Operating in and out of Weston, you have to fly in very specific directions and altitudes and even doing circuits there is tight enough, as you are so close to urban areas and certain computer companies, who take exception to light aircraft flying over them. Operating anything big or fast in and out of there can be intimidating, if you are not paying attention. On a normal basis, the activation of Romeo airspace blocks for routine military operations has an immediate effecton how general aviation operates in Weston. It can make your heart sink to hear, "The R15 is active" because it could mean anything is going on and it affects the routing of GA aircraft at once.
    In terms of housing/industry/road and rail network/farming, it's quite a busy piece of real estate. If you wanted to increase any physical aspect of Baldonnel, such as the runway length, you'd have to take a lot into consideration.

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  6. #254
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    https://en.calameo.com/read/0061942696613bd9e1467

    Article in the latest issue of Signal, about what Ireland needs in terms of military transport aircraft. (And how it can be delivered, more importantly).
    Page 40.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  8. #255
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    Simple Flying 13/12/20: Former French Government Airbus A340s On Sale For €80k A Piece

    Not in any way an appropriate aircraft for us; but illustrative of what's going on in the resale market at the moment.

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  10. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post


    Simple Flying 13/12/20: Former French Government Airbus A340s On Sale For €80k A Piece

    Not in any way an appropriate aircraft for us; but illustrative of what's going on in the resale market at the moment.
    Be careful, the price stated is the opening for an auction, the reserve and it should be exceeded. Also not to be forgotten is that these are A340-200s of which there is only 1 left in commercial service. The market is very soft for older large aircraft with many only worth the scrap value as even the most valuable items (avionics & engines) are obsolete and not in demand.

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  12. #257
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    It was old with high hours when Air France sold them to the French Government. I doubt the French Government would be giving them away if they had any useful life in them.
    This is the Air Force that still uses, 1968 built C160 Transalls, Alpha jets from 1978 and a fleet of C130H from 1987
    The Navy that still uses ships built in 1972 (A69 Patrol frigates) and Tankers built in 1979 (FS Var).
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  14. #258
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    Will that included the engines in the price. Aircraft body and Engines are to different commodities in the aviation world.

  15. #259
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    Don't forget the AA 52 machine gun! Older than God's dog and still being used by the French. When they buy stuff,it's going to be used until it's beyond redemption. Still using Gazelles, too.

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  17. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    https://en.calameo.com/read/0061942696613bd9e1467

    Article in the latest issue of Signal, about what Ireland needs in terms of military transport aircraft. (And how it can be delivered, more importantly).
    Page 40.
    Had a flick through this issue, and have to say, am mightily impressed with the standard of the magazine and some of the stuff going on in the Defence Forces
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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  19. #261
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    Yet again the government looking for a solution. The Dutch send a C-130 today across to the UK, will we be using our airlifters again?

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020...repatriations/

  20. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Yet again the government looking for a solution. The Dutch send a C-130 today across to the UK, will we be using our airlifters again?

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020...repatriations/
    Can we just copy and paste all the discussion from earlier this year.

    Nothing will happen. Nothing will be purchased.

    DCOS Sp, as shown in an FOI, turned down a second PC12 purchase earlier this year due to "lack of hangar space" among a few other things.

    If anyone here or elsewhere thinks there will be anything meaningful (C130, A319/320, KC390 etc) will be purchased now or in the future, you are only codding yourselves.

    At least it will be Craughwell and Lavery something to rabbit on about on twitter.

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  22. #263
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    The Decision was not DCOS, he merely agreed with the Sec Gen's decision to only get one, when the option was one or none.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  23. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The Decision was not DCOS, he merely agreed with the Sec Gen's decision to only get one, when the option was one or none.
    The FOI thread states that initially the Sec Gen "was supportive of the idea of purchasing on aircraft but not entirely convinced of the purchase of two" or words to that effect.

    This was then routed to the DF and the response from the DF (by DCOS Sp) was that they should purchase one, and not two, because they wouldn't have the hangar space. He gave the Sec Gen the answer he wanted to hear.

    No hangar in Costume Barracks but they seemed to figure it out.

    Plenty of serving and retired personnel are quick to point the finger at the DoD but senior DF management don't always cover themselves in glory.

    If someone isnt "entirely convinced" then the effort should be made to convince them. But then again, if you want to reach the top and your modis operandi is to not rock the board by disagreeing with your boss, then this is what happens.

    Given the amount of flying 280 has done since its introduction, I think a second airframe would have been a prudent acquisition.

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  25. #265
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    two or three "consular" flights mentioned on the News at 6.

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  27. #266
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    I've gone through this before, that is not the case.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  28. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I've gone through this before, that is not the case.
    We will agree to disagree.

    DCOS Sp's "recommendation" is on record anyway.

  29. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    We will agree to disagree.

    DCOS Sp's "recommendation" is on record anyway.
    Off you go so.
    Show it.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  30. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Off you go so.
    Show it.
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-39378948.html

    Internal emails show the Secretary General of the Department of Defence was "comfortable" with the idea of acquiring one new aircraft but "not necessarily convinced" of the rationale for two.

    A later business case said one aircraft - purchased for €5.23m including VAT - would actually be better because of restricted hangar space available at Casement Aerodrome in Dublin.
    https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...e-Records.html

    Chain of command:

    DoD Sec Gen
    DCOS Sp
    GOC AC

    Seems there was a strong drive to acquire two and then the narrative changed in line with the wishes of the SecGen.

    Happy to read your version of events.
    Last edited by Chuck; 22nd December 2020 at 00:51.

  31. #270
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    I stand corrected.
    I had not seen document 6 in this collection, just a later document which gave the view DCOS was agreeing with the (early) recommendation from Sec Gen.
    Feck sake. 2nd aircraft delivered at an excellent price, quickly and ready for use and you decline dye to short term manning and parking issues?
    My sincere apologies.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  33. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I stand corrected.
    I had not seen document 6 in this collection, just a later document which gave the view DCOS was agreeing with the (early) recommendation from Sec Gen.
    Feck sake. 2nd aircraft delivered at an excellent price, quickly and ready for use and you decline dye to short term manning and parking issues?
    My sincere apologies.
    Can we still be friends?

    Its absolutely ****ing amazing how a civil servant can dictate the purchase of an aircraft.

    The case was made, the money was there, there IS room to park it. And yet, he isn't convinced.

    If you are top brass in the DF you take what you can get and deal with it when it arrives.

    This is completely ignoring the fact that there was already trained techs and pilots on site. This wasn't purchasing two brand new types off the shelf.

    Absolutely boggles the mind.

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  35. #272
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    How long would it have taken to dig up some grass, pour concrete and erect a suitable structure to park it in? If that was the primary concern.

    And where is the SecGen now? Enjoying a massive pension and not a single care in the world. All the same senior civil servants named in that FOI are there, as are all the general staff.

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  37. #273
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    I can't picture the NS saying in 2015 "OK so I know we only asked for 3 new ships and you are offering us a fourth, where would we park it? We'll have to park up the older ships to crew it, no thanks".
    Knowing the CoS, it's the exact opposite of what he would have done when he was DCOS.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  39. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    How long would it have taken to dig up some grass, pour concrete and erect a suitable structure to park it in? If that was the primary concern.

    And where is the SecGen now? Enjoying a massive pension and not a single care in the world. All the same senior civil servants named in that FOI are there, as are all the general staff.
    In fairness to the majority of contracts branch, they provided all the options, and came back with the purchase of 2 aircraft being the best option per GOC AC. Even going so far as to source low hour type for lease (something which would have been the norm in the 70s and 80s, while awaiting delivery of a new type). Sec Gen though seems to have had the final say, and told DCOS early on, that one was the solution he was seeking to arrive at.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  41. #275
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    A similar turboprop to a PC-12 is housed in a hangar not a million miles from Dublin Airport and said hangar and hardstanding was built in a matter of days. You can do it quickly, if you want to. It didnt cost the earth, either. Not only that, they built another to house a well-known Flight of aircraft. Not mad money, either.

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