Thanks Thanks:  143
Likes Likes:  281
Dislikes Dislikes:  3

View Poll Results: What type of transport aircraft does the Air Corps need?

Voters
39. You may not vote on this poll
  • Military transport aircraft such as C130J/A400M

    31 79.49%
  • Civilian airliner capable of carrying freight

    8 20.51%
Page 13 of 14 FirstFirst ... 311121314 LastLast
Results 301 to 325 of 328
  1. #301
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    24,024
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ropebag View Post
    Without wishing to be seen as taking the DOD side here, thats not what it says.

    I'm afraid my recollection of the thread rather chimes with that specific charge - people here were obsessing about the individual weapons of the two and how they needed to be completely secure. My suggestion, iirc, of throwing in them in a river or in a garbage truck was met with howls of outrage.
    And of course if DoD had instructed them to they then would have billed them the cost, ended there careers and probably been charged

  2. #302
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,715
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    And of course if DoD had instructed them to they then would have billed them the cost, ended there careers and probably been charged
    Peoples careers were paused because they were in charge of someone who for a short moment in time, could not find the key to where weapons were stored.
    We are still dealing with the fallout from an officer who chose to save the lives of the company under his command by agreeing a ceasefire overseas, and being consequentially disarmed by an attacking force of vastly superior numbers.
    Knowing how the DF operate, the officers would be billed for the weapons at their price as new. (i.e not what the DF paid for them) which would be about the same as the cost of the charter flight.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  3. #303
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Over the water
    Posts
    4,568
    Post Thanks / Like
    It still sounds like lots of heads needed to be banged together. It seems that the Military side were making a point about the lack of anything capable of doing the trip in a reasonable manner, and the DoD were screaming "My God, how much?" (and a backing chorus of "What if someone important needs it and it's in Africa?) with very little ground given by either side.

    The irresistible force and the immovable object.

    Interesting that the DoD "won".
    Last edited by Flamingo; 19th January 2021 at 00:23.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  4. #304
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    24,024
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    It still sounds like lots of heads needed to be banged together. It seems that the Military side were making a point about the lack of anything capable of doing the trip in a reasonable manner, and the DoD were screaming "My God, how much?" (and a backing chorus of "What if someone important needs it and it's in Africa?) with very little ground given by either side.

    The irresistible force and the immovable object.

    Interesting that the DoD "won".
    DoD always win as they have the final say

    If it was 2 civil servants it would have been sent

  5. Thanks Flamingo thanked for this post
    Likes na grohmiti, CTU, madmark, ias liked this post
  6. #305
    C/S
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    467
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    DoD always win as they have the final say
    Absolutely. That flight was an operational matter. Fully support the Defence Force sticking to their "guns" excuse the pun. If the NZDF was in that situation they would have sent an aircraft to get them. You would not have heard a peep from our Ministry as they know it is not in their remit and those repatriated Defence Personnel due to the security circumstances would have had full debrief and interview not with just Defence intelligence but also with all the agencies in the intelligence community as well as Foreign Affairs.

    I hope the Defence Commission focuses not just on the Defence Force but also on the Department. The DoD should only focus on setting the Governments strategic policy direction into play and then following this up as advocates for the Defence Force as the State's Armed Commissioned Service to get as much money from the Government coffers to pay for it. They should not and in fact must not have any say in operational matters of the Defence Force. That Irish Times report last December (on the toxic relationship) is right. The DoD should not have ended up "commanding" the Defence Force. That is not how it is in pretty much all other western OECD countries.

    It seems to me that the biggest enemy to the Irish Defence Force is not the Russians, or the Chinese or some mad arse group of nutters, but the very department that is administratively meant to serve and support it, the DoD.

    I don't know this answer but some of you may do. How much due to Covid did the Irish Government pay for chartered jets last year during the global rush to cargo PPG and to repatriate or return stranded citizens or at risk families of diplomatic staff?

    Many months ago Leo said that that Ireland needed a decent sized government jet because of things like Covid and other emergency events that happen (beyond the cushy pen pusher world of the Dublin Civil service.) What has the DoD done to secure such a state asset when at the moment you could pick up a good condition used Airbus or Boeing for less than a nice place with sea views in Dalkey?
    Last edited by Anzac; 19th January 2021 at 12:14.

  7. Thanks DeV, apod, Sarsfield thanked for this post
  8. #306
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    7,158
    Post Thanks / Like
    The HSE has a hired-in Learjet on permanent standby at Dublin Airport. It's costing around 1.5 million a year and it rarely moves. They have not used it to move vaccines,as it was hired to airlift people home, if they couldn't use Commercial transport.

  9. Thanks Flamingo, Anzac, ropebag thanked for this post
    Likes na grohmiti liked this post
  10. #307
    Private 3*
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    73
    Post Thanks / Like
    Meanwhile in another small European nation with a Defence Dept that actually functions to support its armed forces, Slovenia has ordered two Leonardo Spartan C-27 J, after stating that " Covid-19 pandemic had exposed a lack of national airlift". WOW! Hey look how that worked out.
    Sarsfield

  11. Thanks Anzac, DeV, Herald, Tempest, EUFighter, apod thanked for this post
    Likes na grohmiti, Flamingo, DeV, Herald, ropebag, apod liked this post
  12. #308
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,715
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarsfield View Post
    Meanwhile in another small European nation with a Defence Dept that actually functions to support its armed forces, Slovenia has ordered two Leonardo Spartan C-27 J, after stating that " Covid-19 pandemic had exposed a lack of national airlift". WOW! Hey look how that worked out.
    And they are part of the Heavy Airlift Wing. They also use the PC9 as well as the PC6 (predecessor of the PC12 single engine utility aircraft), have a dozen assorted helis and a biz jet. What did they see that we didn't?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  13. Likes DeV, ropebag, apod liked this post
  14. #309
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    7,158
    Post Thanks / Like
    an opportunity to buy aircraft that the manufacturer wants to shift, badly and get a decent deal on the price.

  15. Thanks na grohmiti, DeV thanked for this post
  16. #310
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,715
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thats not how we do things. Buy high, sell low. Thats the civil service way.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  17. Likes EUFighter, ODIN, GoneToTheCanner liked this post
    Dislikes DeV disliked this post
  18. #311
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    24,024
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Thats not how we do things. Buy high, sell low. Thats the civil service way.
    Disliked in error

  19. Likes na grohmiti liked this post
  20. #312
    C/S CTU's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,395
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Thats not how we do things. Buy high, sell low. Thats the civil service way.
    Or in the case of The Emergency, while the allies were closing the stable door after the horse had bolted, Ireland was building the stables.
    It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
    It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
    It was a new age...It was the end of history.
    It was the year everything changed.

  21. Likes DeV, ropebag liked this post
  22. #313
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Posts
    238
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The HSE has a hired-in Learjet on permanent standby at Dublin Airport. It's costing around 1.5 million a year and it rarely moves. They have not used it to move vaccines,as it was hired to airlift people home, if they couldn't use Commercial transport.
    Nighttime air ambulance service will cost €7 million over two years http://jrnl.ie/4056309

    Numbers are a little off there, 3.5 million per year. Its night time only and only for off island. So if there is a requirement to move organs from Kerry to Dublin, it can't be used.

    And there's another new contract in the mix also.

    https://amp.independent.ie/irish-new...mpression=true

    But yet the Sec Gen wasn't "entirely convinced" of the need for another PC12.

    I'm not entirely in favour of the Air Corps doing civilian roles but 16million would get a lot more capability if invested correctly rather than a 2 year contract to a civilian company.

  23. #314
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    24,024
    Post Thanks / Like
    In fairness those contractors are required because the AC can’t provide the service.... why?

    Lack of sufficient personnel on strength, now if they were tasked with the job (like EAS) there should be an increased establishment as well.

    The HSE should also pay for use of AC aircraft for air ambulance work.

    €1M a year would mean over a €1,000 pay increase for all AC personnel

  24. Likes Flamingo liked this post
  25. #315
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Over the water
    Posts
    4,568
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    Nighttime air ambulance service will cost €7 million over two years http://jrnl.ie/4056309

    Numbers are a little off there, 3.5 million per year. Its night time only and only for off island. So if there is a requirement to move organs from Kerry to Dublin, it can't be used.

    And there's another new contract in the mix also.

    https://amp.independent.ie/irish-new...mpression=true

    But yet the Sec Gen wasn't "entirely convinced" of the need for another PC12.

    I'm not entirely in favour of the Air Corps doing civilian roles but 16million would get a lot more capability if invested correctly rather than a 2 year contract to a civilian company.
    I wonder who’s brother-in-law owns the company...
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  26. #316
    CQMS warthog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    208
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    And they are part of the Heavy Airlift Wing. They also use the PC9 as well as the PC6 (predecessor of the PC12 single engine utility aircraft), have a dozen assorted helis and a biz jet. What did they see that we didn't?
    The DOD chequebook...

  27. Likes na grohmiti, Sparky42, CTU, DeV liked this post
  28. #317
    Private 2*
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    17
    Post Thanks / Like
    If this doesn't show that we need a dedicated transport aircraft/long range aircraft I dont know what will this aircorps PC12 hex :4CA41C

    Took off from casement aerodrome on a Saturday(27th) at 6am and went to Zagreb refueled. https://i.imgur.com/sVUuOxE.png (side note the air-corps Learjet was just in Zagreb a 12 hours earlier and im not sure it has left yet, not sure if related https://i.imgur.com/fjRiLim.png)

    After refueling made its way to Ankara, Turkey and refueled yet again https://i.imgur.com/xqXSGGJ.png

    Then finally made its destination at Antakya airport , Turkey near the syrian border https://i.imgur.com/nG489LD.jpeg (picture of it taking off today the 28th jan)

    So all in all a 2 stop flight to get to its destination a time of near 9 hours flight time not including ground stops along the way, Imagine just what 1 c130 could do for flights like this turning a 2 day long flight back and forth into 1.

  29. Likes Tempest, The Usual Suspect liked this post
  30. #318
    Brigadier General
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,782
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Quinn View Post
    If this doesn't show that we need a dedicated transport aircraft/long range aircraft I dont know what will this aircorps PC12 hex :4CA41C

    Took off from casement aerodrome on a Saturday(27th) at 6am and went to Zagreb refueled. https://i.imgur.com/sVUuOxE.png (side note the air-corps Learjet was just in Zagreb a 12 hours earlier and im not sure it has left yet, not sure if related https://i.imgur.com/fjRiLim.png)

    After refueling made its way to Ankara, Turkey and refueled yet again https://i.imgur.com/xqXSGGJ.png

    Then finally made its destination at Antakya airport , Turkey near the syrian border https://i.imgur.com/nG489LD.jpeg (picture of it taking off today the 28th jan)

    So all in all a 2 stop flight to get to its destination a time of near 9 hours flight time not including ground stops along the way, Imagine just what 1 c130 could do for flights like this turning a 2 day long flight back and forth into 1.
    I believe that was a MATS trip by the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

  31. #319
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    24,024
    Post Thanks / Like

  32. #320
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    7,158
    Post Thanks / Like
    Nothing new there. I saw one of those fly-on-the -wall documentaries on the cops in the UK dealing with emigration offences and they liaise with the Polish Air Force to shift a Casa load every week. Every week, just of Poles. How's that for maintaining currency?

  33. #321
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Here And There...
    Posts
    10,669
    Post Thanks / Like
    Good article in the RACO "Signal" magazine (Winter 2020 issue) here on this subject:
    https://en.calameo.com/read/0061942696613bd9e1467
    "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

  34. Thanks apc, Anzac thanked for this post
    Likes DeV liked this post
  35. #322
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,715
    Post Thanks / Like
    Here we go again...
    https://www.thestory.ie/2021/02/23/d...ion-in-africa/

    Ken playing a blinder here.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  36. Thanks DeV, ias, Turkey thanked for this post
    Likes Rocinante liked this post
  37. #323
    C/S
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    543
    Post Thanks / Like
    When you see the news of what happened to the Italian ambassador and his his two companions in Goma, it shows the seriousness of the situation in that area. Thankfully the two officers were able to be repatriated safely however this does highlight that we place people in danger without the will and/or ability to extract them in emergencies. One can only hope that this latest development will be studied at the highest level and long range transport aircraft will be acquired before the next emergency arises. Also one would hope that instructions will be put in place that Irish personnel abroad must be repatriated at soon as is necessary.

  38. Thanks Flamingo thanked for this post
  39. #324
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    7,715
    Post Thanks / Like
    The thing that is most unsettling is the "we know what's best" attitude on display by some in the DoD.
    The circles they went to get a civvy contractor (only 2 months later, when the DF got seats on a scheduled flight for those being repatriated, to abandon same) instead of starting the process to clear the Lear to do the trip.
    Why couldn't they get the two observers on the scheduled flight?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  40. Likes ias, DeV, CTU liked this post
  41. #325
    BQMS
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    723
    Post Thanks / Like
    Plenty becoming available across the sea
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-grounded.html

  42. Likes DeV liked this post

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •