Military transport aircraft

[Tempest]

We're quickly back to scraping around thinking of ways to get capability with the least public perception and cost. Either we need the capability or we don't. if we do then just go and get it in the normal way. As we did for MPA aircraft. Training aircraft. ISTAR aircraft.

[DeV]

We're quickly back to scraping around thinking of ways to get capability with the least public perception and cost. Either we need the capability or we don't. if we do then just go and get it in the normal way. As we did for MPA aircraft. Training aircraft. ISTAR aircraft.

For the level of utilisation (hours) that we realistically will require it is a good idea and would be quicker delivery. VFM while providing a massive jump in capability.

It is a possible interm solution to show utility of having such a State asset. The real issue is there at least 2 C130s to exact same specs available (or upgradable to exact same specs).

[na grohmiti]

It may be the elephant in the room, but if we are going to go down the road of C130H aren't we back in the world of having flight engineers in cockpits? Something nobody in the Air Corps has done, or will need to do in the future? Not to mention Navigators.

[DeV]

It may be the elephant in the room, but if we are going to go down the road of C130H aren't we back in the world of having flight engineers in cockpits? Something nobody in the Air Corps has done, or will need to do in the future? Not to mention Navigators.

If an option I wouldn’t say the H I’d say the J

[na grohmiti]

There isn't loads of surplus Js about. Most surplus hercs, i.e off the shelf, are either the H model or the H with the extended fuselage (by Marshall of Cambridge).

[DeV]

Realistically (And possibly most advantageous) the most likely Outcome would be 1-2 transport C295Ms Due to commonality with the existing fleet resulting in many savings.

If we are going for something bigger for tactical ops the only show in town is the 2 x C130. Ideally second hand J’s (if available), if H’s are all that’s available then there are implications for crewing and possibly avionics. It could be cheaper in long run to go for new J’s.

If we want a strategic transport it will have to be capable of QC to cargo or cargo/pax configs. I wouldn’t imagine that there are many on the market 2nd hand. We really need something that can operate (loaded) from Baldonnel if at all possible so it doesn’t need to reposition. Something with 100-130 seats. And we need 2.

They have to be “sold” as an increase in capability able to support “Ireland Inc”, they must be used/deployed (that could be deploying them fulltime as a unit with a UN mandated operation, support to Irish Aid (NGOs don’t necessarily want to co-operate (or be seen to) with military, use for trade delegations with Enterprise Ireland (could be more important in the future with COVID19, Brexit etc, troop rotations and resupply ops are not that frequent (so not just for our contingents), dare I say it - MATS to send a large delegations, as well as on standby for emergencies that crop up).

Wet lease is not suitable as it isn’t flexible enough to cover all eventualities. Dry lease is probably the same (eg insurance).

There is no current shared Asset organisation that meets our these needs without a major (massive) shift in Irish foreign policy.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Modern Hercs have no flight engineers or navigators as the avionics has effectively rendered them redundant. It'd be like having them in an A330 or a 787. Cargo aircraft doing ad-hoc stuff tend to carry a few loaders, depending on the nature of the cargo and they might carry a dedicated loadmaster or they'll just do the weight and balance calculations themselves or they'll pay a flight ops company to do it for them. Big outfits like DHL and Fedex have huge flight ops setups because of their global nature.

[Graylion]

What wasn't discussed in the webinar was membership of EATC or ATARES. Especially ATARES strikes me as ideal.

https://eatc-mil.com/en/what-we-do/atares

"ATARES is not based on a purely bilateral reciprocity but has to be seen in the global multinational framework. For example, ATARES offers the possibility…

… for the Dutch KDC-10 to execute an air-to air refuelling mission on behalf of Spain;
… in parallel Spanish KC130 offers a parachute drop mission to Germany;
… while German military personnel and Italian cargo are transported by a French A400M;
…Luxembourg Learjet executes an aeromedical evacuation for a Belgian soldier wounded in crisis areas;
…Italian C27J transports a Dutch cargo;
…Belgian Embraer moves French soldiers;
…German A310 executes an aeromedical evacuation mission for Luxembourg."

Failing that fractional ownership of 3 C-17 aka membership of SAC strikes me as the best option.

[na grohmiti]

Modern Hercs have no flight engineers or navigators as the avionics has effectively rendered them redundant. It'd be like having them in an A330 or a 787. Cargo aircraft doing ad-hoc stuff tend to carry a few loaders, depending on the nature of the cargo and they might carry a dedicated loadmaster or they'll just do the weight and balance calculations themselves or they'll pay a flight ops company to do it for them. Big outfits like DHL and Fedex have huge flight ops setups because of their global nature.

A lot of the H models available have not had those upgrades. Some were built in the 60s, and share technology with other lockheed's of the Era, such as Tristar. It only got the upgrade if the owner wanted it. Some weren't flying so it was never an issue.

[DeV]

What wasn't discussed in the webinar was membership of EATC or ATARES. Especially ATARES strikes me as ideal.

https://eatc-mil.com/en/what-we-do/atares

"ATARES is not based on a purely bilateral reciprocity but has to be seen in the global multinational framework. For example, ATARES offers the possibility…

… for the Dutch KDC-10 to execute an air-to air refuelling mission on behalf of Spain;
… in parallel Spanish KC130 offers a parachute drop mission to Germany;
… while German military personnel and Italian cargo are transported by a French A400M;
…Luxembourg Learjet executes an aeromedical evacuation for a Belgian soldier wounded in crisis areas;
…Italian C27J transports a Dutch cargo;
…Belgian Embraer moves French soldiers;
…German A310 executes an aeromedical evacuation mission for Luxembourg."

Failing that fractional ownership of 3 C-17 aka membership of SAC strikes me as the best option.

The C17 is too much aircraft for our needs, we need something like that every 10 years or so.

In both cases we could be looking at not being able to part of particular missions due to our legal and political constraints.

[Anzac]

There are still quite a few dozen stored C-130H airframes sitting in the desert at AMARG that can have a 2nd life that can be acquired through the Excess Defence Article program to foreign governments. A number of them were built in the 1980's much younger than the RNZAF H models (the oldest of the type) and serviced in National Guard or USAF Reserve units. The basic value of an ex AMARG airframe is around US$3m then there is a regeneration cost to flyable condition on top of that. The ex Norwegian ones that ended up in the desert have gone through this process and become civilian works horses. However for the military airlift envisaged by Ireland's use further modernisation will be required.

The LM representative touched upon LM leading a C-130H refurbishment and remanufacturing program that is getting underway, with the all important sustainment and support.

Already there is the L3 lead AMP upgrade program which provides for a new glass cockpit and integration of a communications, navigation, surveillance/air traffic management (CNS/ATM) avionics suite.

There is also another new USAF program through Collins to fit NP2000 eight-bladed propellers which will improve operational performance and reduce maintenance costs as well as a Series 3.5 upgrade to their Rolls-Royce T56 engines.

There are also a number of C-130 SLEP programs targeting the base airframe including landing gear, wings and centre box.

Thus it seems that as the manufacturer LM wants to coordinate a package of sub-contractors on behalf of interested nations who don't currently have the C-130 and offer a refurbished product where they source used airframes, project manage the upgrades and then offer the support and sustainment. There is obviously a potential market for this.

Thus it is entirely possible to essentially "remanufacture" a C-130H with a refurbished airframe, prop/engine upgrade and overhaul and add a new glass cockpit and flight management system.

This could be a cost effective approach to get a very good capability. Refurbishment is becoming a popular option across a range of older ex US airframes. The Huey II program has been a success, so has been the remanufacturing of the F-16V and a number of other legacy aircraft. The RNZAF's "new" Kaman SH-2G(I) maritime choppers were originally manufactured as H-2B's in the 1960's if you look at the original airframe serials. So it is not an unusual or daunting prospect especially if the project is undertaken via an originating manufacturers expertise.

Was pleased to see the contribution of the Centre for Defence and Security Studies at Massey University and NZDF in the webinar. Would like to see more of this sort of collaboration between the Irish Defence community and the NZ Defence community as the parallels are prophetic even though the huge physical distance.

[Charlie252]

A large part of this programme is what was offered to the AC in around '03/'04. LM made an unsolicited offer of three refurbed H models for 5 years on a lease. I think the cost at the time was 15 million.

I would imagine a similar offer at the moment might find a far more favorable audience, the lease cost sounds a lot more affordable to the general public and to the DOD.

[DeV]

A large part of this programme is what was offered to the AC in around '03/'04. LM made an unsolicited offer of three refurbed H models for 5 years on a lease. I think the cost at the time was 15 million.

I would imagine a similar offer at the moment might find a far more favorable audience, the lease cost sounds a lot more affordable to the general public and to the DOD.

I assume dry lease?
The ex-AC pilot and current aircraft leaser On the webinar was of the mind that it would restrict what you could use it for mainly due to risk and insurance

[na grohmiti]

I assume dry lease?
The ex-AC pilot and current aircraft leaser On the webinar was of the mind that it would restrict what you could use it for mainly due to risk and insurance

I think that was directed more towards the lease of civilian aircraft, then sending them to a "hot LZ", however it would be different when you are leasing a purely military aircraft directly from, in this case, the manufacturers (who are keen to have you as a long term customer).

[DeV]

I think that was directed more towards the lease of civilian aircraft, then sending them to a "hot LZ", however it would be different when you are leasing a purely military aircraft directly from, in this case, the manufacturers (who are keen to have you as a long term customer).

I would imagine that either way the manufacturer/leaser wants there expensive asset insured

[Anzac]

A large part of this programme is what was offered to the AC in around '03/'04. LM made an unsolicited offer of three refurbed H models for 5 years on a lease. I think the cost at the time was 15 million.

Not quite, it was a different program in those days and that H model refresh by LM was also run by us when we were thinking of C-130 / B727 replacement options back in 2002. What they are offering now is much more comprehensive because in 2002 it essentially was a return to service regeneration by the 309th Group at Davis Montham. In fact some of the new upgrades offered now such as the digital cockpit were born out of the RNZAF H model upgrades over the last few years that were the preferred pathway than new builds or leasing.

I would imagine a similar offer at the moment might find a far more favorable audience, the lease cost sounds a lot more affordable to the general public and to the DOD.

You can arrange lease to buy under foreign military financing arrangement as part of the EDA/FMS process if acceptable to Congress.

[DeV]

Maybe a water bomber isn’t necessarily a bad idea

There is a major fire 500 metres from the Enfield Explosives Factory

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...66797?mode=amp

[na grohmiti]

Bambi buchet dropping a ton at a time not enough for you?

[DeV]

Bambi buchet dropping a ton at a time not enough for you?

It was a Rhetorical comment

[na grohmiti]

If this article doesn't scream the need for military transport aircraft, nothing will. Yet again we have to expect our old rulers will bail us out.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...c-1002559.html

“Twenty-four hours later we arrived in Lima and were greeted by British soldiers. It was surreal.
“The airport was completely closed, so we were taking off from the military airbase in Lima.

Although commercial flights had all but ground to a halt, some airlines were offering chartered flights.
At one stage, Irish and British embassy staff were offering a flight out through a private Colombian company, Avianca.
Irish citizens were advised via email that the company was “considering” arranging a chartered plane from Lima to London that weekend, March 21/22.
They also said they would also put in place a connecting flight from Cusco to Lima to connect with this London flight.
However, the price was “likely” to be $3,500 one way economy class and $7,500 business class - a price people were told reflected “what is involved in negotiating permissions from the authorities”.
While some like Mr Cotter were prepared to pay for economy seats, others simply couldn’t afford the prices and everyone eventually resigned themselves to having to remain for longer in their accommodation.

So, in the days before flights to and from Ireland were banned on March 16 all the diplomatic staff were in the office on the phones calling people directly, and warning them about possible problems with flights if they wanted to leave.

“But we had noticed that although they had banned other people's flights, some flights still continued to go out and there was a grace period.
“That was kind of our impetus to then start talking to the airlines directly.”
Thanks to a call she had made to her opposite number in Dublin at the start of the crisis, she found out about a flight the Turkish government were sending to Dublin.
As well as getting permission to take Irish citizens out of Turkey, she also had to quickly arrange for the plane to be allowed land in Dublin with passengers on board. “Turkish Airlines had permission to land an empty airplane into Dublin but not an aircraft with people on board,” she recalled.
“We were phoning up at midnight to Department of Justice and Department of Transport officials and Dublin Airport over the weekend.
“We wanted to give them a heads up there would be a request coming in.”
As well as getting Irish citizens out, the flight was helpful for other reasons too. She contacted other embassies and offered them space on the plane - a favour they would later return.
“Because we knew that a flight was happening, we contacted other EU embassies and the UK here to say we can get people into Ireland, would that be useful for you?” she said.
In total, about 30 were on board, from Ireland, Sweden, Turkey, Portugal, the UK and America.

[DeV]

If this article doesn't scream the need for military transport aircraft, nothing will. Yet again we have to expect our old rulers will bail us out.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...c-1002559.html

In fairness, this is something EU countries do work together on in a time of crisis (probably multi-laterally rather than via the EU) as they also do so on deportations. In fact deportations would be a good use of such an asset as it is more secure. It would probably be too much aircraft for extractions.

Also in fairness, Aer Lingus and Ryanair evacuated Irish citizens from Spain (booking and seat fees waved and larger aircraft put on the route).

That is not to say that it wouldn't have utility for the AC to be able to do so.

[Graylion]

Maybe a water bomber isn’t necessarily a bad idea

There is a major fire 500 metres from the Enfield Explosives Factory

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...66797?mode=amp

There is an EU frame work for this where certain countries focus on these. Portugal for one, so if we need one, we can request one. No need to keep one around.

[DeV]

The 2 Irish officers in Goma are back in Ireland

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...9F5LLx.twitter

[GoneToTheCanner]

The Polish Air Force flies a Casa to the UK every week to carry out deportations of Polish people who are being sent home by the UK police, rather than having them in jail in the UK. That's every week, for Polish citizens on Polish warrants, from minor stuff right up to murder. So, that's either a waste of a military transport and the associated police resources or a first class use of an aircraft and policemen, depending on your point of view........As for embassies helping each other, that has long been a characteristic of Irish and British embassies in Africa and parts of Asia. They often stand in for each other and will help each other's citizens, from full embassies right down to honorary consuls. In fact, a lot of interaction is done to help people without necessarily informing London or Dublin first.

[pilatus]

There isn't loads of surplus Js about. Most surplus hercs, i.e off the shelf, are either the H model or the H with the extended fuselage (by Marshall of Cambridge).

The RAF have retired 9 of their 10 C130J standard length Hercules. 5 went to Bangladesh, 2 to Bahrain and 1 to the US Marines Blue Angels to replace Fat Albert. The unit to the Marines cost $29 million and according to an article on "the drive" website saved the corps paying $80 million for a new build. There is still 1 stored in the UK that some country will get a good deal on. If only we had been in the market for an aircraft when they were available.