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Thread: Statues

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    I know, I never though Oscar Wilde had such a dark past
    Bit close to the bone. It turns our Oscar was a bit of an anti semite.
    “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
    ― Thucydides

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaqra View Post
    Bit close to the bone. It turns our Oscar was a bit of an anti semite.
    Not at all.
    He was writing for his audience. Nuance.
    The oily Jewish entrepreneur is a stock figure in the popular literature of Wilde's day, and it is almost certain that Wilde meant him to be another representative of Victorian melodrama and to contribute to the unattractive atmosphere surrounding Sibyl. He is clearly her equivalent of Caliban. But one cannot stop here. Wilde pushes the anti-Semitism to the point of parody, prompting the reader to ask further questions. It is my view, which I offer simply as an educated hypothesis, that Isaacs is at least in part Wilde's response to George Eliot. The most prominent and towering example of the portrayal of the Jewish community in the final decades of the century was Eliot's Daniel Deronda (1876). In Daniel Deronda she displayed a warmly sympathetic attitude towards the Jewish community and used it to criticise non-Jewish English society. Wilde disliked Eliot considerably. In The Decay of Lying [text], written shortly before The Picture of Dorian Gray, he enumerated then criticised the various novelists of his day for abandoning "lying" in favour of scientific accuracy and realism. He wrote of George Eliot: "Mr. Ruskin once described the characters in George Eliot's novels as being like the sweepings of a Pentonville omnibus, but M. Zola's characters are much worse" (p. 1075). Wilde, then, associated Eliot with Zola and saw her as part of a movement whose drift led ultimately to that terrible enemy of aestheticism, naturalism. It is true that Eliot is realistic and often mercilessly critical in her analysis of her characters and their motives. She abandons this attitude only once — in presenting Daniel Deronda in particular and the Jewish community in general. Deronda is uncharacteristically idealised by George Eliot. Unlike her other characters he is, quite simply, perfect.

    Isaacs in my view is a deliberate parodic inversion of Daniel Deronda. Although this cannot be proved, there are indications which point in that direction. George Eliot describes Deronda as "young, handsome, distinguished in appearance" (p. 5). and of course impeccably well-dressed and a member of the upper orders. Isaacs, on the other hand, is old, ugly, repulsive in appearance, ridiculously dressed, and lower class.
    The Wildean: A Journal of Oscar Wilde Studies, published by the Oscar Wilde Society.
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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Not at all.
    He was writing for his audience. Nuance.
    Unfortunately he also expressed similar views in his personal letters:

    Wilde blamed “the Jews” for his indecency conviction.

    In another letter to a friend, he wrote: “The Jews make propaganda to homosexuality, but on the other hand they strike at their enemies with it.” He also blamed a ‘Jewish physician’ in Paris for making him worse, not better. (A small thing, but in the pile of things he has already said, not insignificant.)

    In a letter to a friend he wrote:

    ‘So Tartuffe goes out of my life —
    Of course the fact of his being a Jew, on his father’s side, explains everything.
    I hope on the day of St. Hugh of Lincoln there will be a general massacre – but I don’t know [when] that day occurs. Do you?’
    "
    “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
    ― Thucydides

  6. #54
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    Henry Ford.
    Charles Lindbergh.
    Everyone in Limerick in 1904.
    Joe Kennedy.
    Napoleon.
    The Catholic Church in the 19th century.

    All the above can rightly be labelled as anti Semitic. It has not gone away either, and while we may like to point out modern figures who are clearly anti semitic, we still buy their product (Mel Gibson).

    So maybe he was, like everyone else at the time, a great big jew hater.
    What do we do?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  7. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    So maybe he was, like everyone else at the time, a great big jew hater.
    What do we do?
    I wasn't planning on starting a Culture War , it was intended as a semi humorous response to the previous post. But as you ask - we can stop judging the past by today's standards and educate, educate, educate. Tearing down statues - inflaming tensions on all sides - is, in my view, counterproductive. We can instead use the opportunity to hold an outdoor seminar every year at the offending statue and debate the facts. Talk to people, don't yell at them or, even worse, tweet at them.

    The intriguing thing about the current furore is that the presence of these statues has actually sparked an educational process. For example the debate around the Sean Russell statue has resulted in a lot of people discovering the Nazi links of the IRA and Sinn Fein, something they would rather stayed unremarked.

    Statues typically commemorate great achievements. Great is a subjective term but it certainly is not synonymous with Good. Many great battles, for example, were won by deeply flawed and, in many cases, objectionable individuals and resulted in obscene loss of life. Do we commemorate them ? Do we ignore them ?

    If we take the current trend in the US to tear down Confederate statues or rename Military bases because, among other reasons, they were "Traitors" , are we then undoing all the work done after the Civil War in trying to rebuild the US as a confederation of ALL the States ? By that logic should Cathal Brugha barracks be renamed because Cathal Brugha was on the "losing" side in our Civil War ?

    What depresses me in the current statue wars is the tribalism, the ill informed certainty on both sides and the lack of informed debate. That's why I prefer IMO to Twitter
    “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
    ― Thucydides

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  9. #56
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    An interesting piece on Confederate Monuments, when and where they were erected - it seems that not many were erected at a time when they would have contributed to national healing...

    https://www.history.com/news/how-the...rate-monuments

    How the US Got So Many Confederate Monuments

    While every statue in every town has a different origin, taken together, the roughly 700 Confederate monuments in the United States tell a national story. Many of these commemorations of those on the losing side of the Civil War are a lot newer than one might think.

    According to the Southern Poverty Law Center, which maintains a list of these monuments, the memorials are spread over 31 states plus the District of Columbia—far exceeding the 11 Confederate states that seceded at the outset of the Civil War.

    Most of these monuments did not go up immediately after the war’s end in 1865. During that time, commemorative markers of the Civil War tended to be memorials that mourned soldiers who had died, says Mark Elliott, a history professor at University of North Carolina, Greensboro.

    “Eventually they started to build [Confederate] monuments,” he says. “The vast majority of them were built between the 1890s and 1950s, which matches up exactly with the era of Jim Crow segregation.” According to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s research, the biggest spike was between 1900 and the 1920s.

    In contrast to the earlier memorials that mourned dead soldiers, these monuments tended to glorify leaders of the Confederacy like General Robert E. Lee, former President of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis and General “Thomas Stonewall” Jackson.

    “All of those monuments were there to teach values to people,” Elliott says. “That’s why they put them in the city squares. That’s why they put them in front of state buildings.” Many earlier memorials had instead been placed in cemeteries.

    The values these monuments stood for, he says, included a “glorification of the cause of the Civil War.”

    White women were instrumental in raising funds to build these Confederate monuments. The United Daughters of the Confederacy, founded in the 1890s, was probably the most important and influential group, Elliott says.

    In fact, the group was responsible for creating what is basically the Mount Rushmore of the Confederacy: a gigantic stone carving of Davis, Lee and Jackson in Stone Mountain, Georgia. Its production began in the 1910s, and it was completed in the 1960s.

    By then, the construction of new Confederate monuments had begun to taper off, but the backlash to the Civil Rights Movement was spreading Confederate symbols in other ways: In 1956, Georgia redesigned its state flag to include the Confederate battle flag; and in 1962, South Carolina placed the flag atop its capitol building. In a 2016 report, the Southern Poverty Law Center said that the country’s more than 700 monuments were part of roughly 1,500 symbols of the Confederacy in public spaces.

    Protesters and city officials have gradually taken down statues in multiple towns and cities. The Southern Poverty Law Center estimates that, as of February 2019, at least 138 Confederate symbols had been removed from public spaces since 2015.

    More statues were targeted following protests over the police killing of George Floyd, a black man in Minneapolis, on May 25, 2020. On June 9, 2020, protesters toppled a statue of Confederate President Jefferson Davis in Richmond, Virginia. And Governor Ralph Northam announced earlier that month that he planned to order the Robert E. Lee statue in Richmond—a former capital of the Confederacy—to be removed.
    Last edited by Flamingo; 23rd June 2020 at 15:03.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  11. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    So you visited the fine statue to Lord Nelson the last time you were in Dublin then?
    Now that you mention it, there are a couple of parallels between that and what we're talking about.

    Those who blew Nelson's Pillar sky-high presumably thought they were 'striking a blow for Irish freedom' or somesuch - but over half a century later, Norn Iron is still under the tyrannical yoke of the Brattish Croyyyn, and for some reason the column has been replaced by a giant knitting needle.

    Long story short, blowing up the column was a pointless gesture, and it achieved nothing beyond making those responsible feel good about themselves.
    Seemingly they weren't too worried about the risk of innocent people (ironically, the very same people they probably considered themselves to be fighting for) having their heads taken off by chunks of flying granite, either.

    Plus ça change, eh.
    Last edited by FCA Trooper; 23rd June 2020 at 15:21.

  12. #58
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    It's not a knitting needle, it's a syringe needle, as a mark of respect to all the heroin addicts drawn to its shadow for methadone.

    Also the initial bombing did less damage to the people and property on O'Connell st than the later controlled demolition by the Army, which broke every pane of glass in dublin, if the stories are to be believed.
    Last edited by na grohmiti; 23rd June 2020 at 15:52.
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    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  14. #59
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    Gandhi?
    Strange how the movie with Ben Kingsley in the title role never mentioned his sexual deviance and glossed over his racism. Based on the film he only became a civil rights hero after he was treated the same as the Blacks in South Africa.
    (The film was made at the height of awareness of Apartheid in South Africa)
    https://medium.com/@pieterjfriedrich...o-158b76cf701d
    Last edited by na grohmiti; 23rd June 2020 at 21:31.
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    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  16. #60
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    Good debate on Joe Duffy today about Heer Russell being painted last night in the Qayoor colours,
    https://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/
    Last edited by sofa; 23rd June 2020 at 21:50.

  17. #61
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    Speaking of qayoor, David McSavage made his name making lewd comments to passing schoolgirls while doing his act on Grafton st.
    Classy.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  18. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Speaking of qayoor, David McSavage made his name making lewd comments to passing schoolgirls while doing his act on Grafton st.
    Classy.
    Seen him in action in temple bar one Saturday and a remark he made to a father passing by with his child on his shoulders. Father showed remarkable restraint.

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