Equipment Development Plan

[DeV]

Yeah the requirements listed look like they are tailor made to the Giraffe 1X....

We need medium range primary radar not short range

[Graylion]

SAAB Giraffe 1x come on down!

https://saab.com/air/sensor-systems/...ce/giraffe-1x/

Can we please have the 4a? 1x is soo short range. Works nicely to find the source of incoming arty though.

[EUFighter]

The requirement is to replace the Giraffe Mk4 in the GBAD role, the 1X has a range of 75km which is more than enough for GBAD. In that role it is normally linked with the RBS70 Mk2 system.
If that is too short a range the next Saab radar would be the ABM with a range of 120km and is the radar used with the British Sky Sabre (Land CAMM) SAM system.

[Graylion]

Giraffe ABM is not AESA though

[DeV]

Just noticed we are talking about different things:

Other important platforms or associated equipment capabilities
? Ground Based Air Defence (GBAD) Radar – this is an important asset used by the Artillery Corps – an updated system is due for acquisition in the period 2021-22.

Future programmes at pre planning stage
Beyond the very significant range of projects already underway or in existing planning streams, the EDP highlights others that are expected to progress in future phases of the plan. This is not an exhaustive list but gives an indication of the scale and range of programmes that will enter planning. At this stage there is not a definite commitment to pursue, or an associated time-frame, for these. These include a primary radar system

[sofa]

3D would even be an improvement

[Graylion]

Alternatively Thales Groundmaster 60

[meridian]

SAAB Giraffe 1x come on down!

https://saab.com/air/sensor-systems/...ce/giraffe-1x/

Although someone mentioned that many of these items were referenced in the 2015 White Paper, great to see the EDP with additions listed out in a single document Here's hoping it gets completed now, after pay and conditions are firstly addressed ...

The Giraffe 1x is an amazing compact piece of kit, when compared to the original truck mounted Giraffe (40/PS70 I think) the Army used to operate with the RBS 70.

With the GBAD upgrades (radar and RBS 70 replacement planned) to include CUAV, is any consideration being given to a mounted gun/missile combination such as USMC JLTV-based MIDAS or US Army IM-SHORAD for close in protection? Possibly a slightly lower cost version of such a system, but of a similar concept. Or if available, a common land/naval system based on the Thales LMM and 30mm cannon a la MSI Seahawk Sigma. And to round things out as a 'proper' RBS 70 replacement, maybe something like RBS 98 or if money existed CAMM...

Apologies for Waltering a bit, but as the areas are being considered in the near future, just wondering what the thoughts were on the subject.

[na grohmiti]

I don't think we have fired a single RBS70 on Irish soil, but it remains a perfectly useful point defence weapon for our purposes (when combined with cannon).
In real terms our Air Defence radar and weaponry has been designed around controlling a small piece of airspace, such as a conference of World Leaders taking place on our isle, or a visiting world leader, should he chose to stay here overnight.
Don't expect anything from the USA any time soon though.

[EUFighter]

Although someone mentioned that many of these items were referenced in the 2015 White Paper, great to see the EDP with additions listed out in a single document Here's hoping it gets completed now, after pay and conditions are firstly addressed ...

The Giraffe 1x is an amazing compact piece of kit, when compared to the original truck mounted Giraffe (40/PS70 I think) the Army used to operate with the RBS 70.

With the GBAD upgrades (radar and RBS 70 replacement planned) to include CUAV, is any consideration being given to a mounted gun/missile combination such as USMC JLTV-based MIDAS or US Army IM-SHORAD for close in protection? Possibly a slightly lower cost version of such a system, but of a similar concept. Or if available, a common land/naval system based on the Thales LMM and 30mm cannon a la MSI Seahawk Sigma. And to round things out as a 'proper' RBS 70 replacement, maybe something like RBS 98 or if money existed CAMM...

Apologies for Waltering a bit, but as the areas are being considered in the near future, just wondering what the thoughts were on the subject.

Items like the RBS98 (IRIS-T SL), CAMM and NASAMS are all much larger and more capable than the systems they are replacing, typically they have ranges of 25km while the systems they replace had ranges closer to 8km. This makes the systems and the missiles much more expensive that those they have replaced.

IMHO the Giraffe 1x linked to the newer RBS70NG would be a good basis for a SHORAD system.

To complete the package and tackle small/very small drones there should be some form of AUDS for soft-kill capability with the hard-kill coming from a rapid fire 30mm cannon with ABM capability. For the latter I know the 40mm fans will say that the Bofors is better with ABM but I tend to think the rapid fire of 30mm together with the ability to carry more round for the same weight/volume better matches the drone defence mode.

Ideally all would be in a palletised system so we could use it mounted on a truck or as a semi-fixed position system. However at present I do not see such a system on the market just the individual parts. The only thing that system that comes close is the IM-SHORAD but we do not have any spare MOWAG that we could give up for conversion.

[Rhodes]

I posted this on the UNIFIL thread in 2018.
It puts into context here the sort of air surveillance and air defence capability that is currently in use on a peacekeeping mission, which includes C-RAM and C-UAV detection.
It's possible the DF could be required to deploy overseas with this capability in the near future.

With all the talk on another thread on the RBS 70 I thought I'd post this recent video on French air surveillance and defence in Lebanon with UNIFIL using the Mistral missile.
English subtitles in settings.

The radar seen I think is the MARTHA NC1 system.
Ive also seen the COBRA Counter Battery Radar up on Hill 880.
The French also use the VAB with 20mm gun seen in the video for air defence alongside the Mistral.

Its a very good example of how air surveillance and defence could be carried out using the RBS 70 and Giraffe radar on a peacekeeping mission.

[EUFighter]

I posted this on the UNIFIL thread in 2018.
It puts into context here the sort of air surveillance and air defence capability that is currently in use on a peacekeeping mission, which includes C-RAM and C-UAV detection.
It's possible the DF could be required to deploy overseas with this capability in the near future.

France has deployed a lot of high end equipment to their mission in UNIFIL over the years: Leclerc MBT and GCT-155 SPH being just some of the toys they deployed. Not sure how much was requested by the UN!

It would be interesting if UNIFIL was to be responsible for policing the airspace over it Area of Operations, especially for drones. If there was an authorisation to engage an illegal drone activity then it would make sense. There is no point in taking kit with you unless it can be used.

[DeV]

I don't think we have fired a single RBS70 on Irish soil, but it remains a perfectly useful point defence weapon for our purposes (when combined with cannon).
In real terms our Air Defence radar and weaponry has been designed around controlling a small piece of airspace, such as a conference of World Leaders taking place on our isle, or a visiting world leader, should he chose to stay here overnight.
Don't expect anything from the USA any time soon though.

Disliked in error

[DeV]

Items like the RBS98 (IRIS-T SL), CAMM and NASAMS are all much larger and more capable than the systems they are replacing, typically they have ranges of 25km while the systems they replace had ranges closer to 8km. This makes the systems and the missiles much more expensive that those they have replaced.

IMHO the Giraffe 1x linked to the newer RBS70NG would be a good basis for a SHORAD system.

To complete the package and tackle small/very small drones there should be some form of AUDS for soft-kill capability with the hard-kill coming from a rapid fire 30mm cannon with ABM capability. For the latter I know the 40mm fans will say that the Bofors is better with ABM but I tend to think the rapid fire of 30mm together with the ability to carry more round for the same weight/volume better matches the drone defence mode.

Ideally all would be in a palletised system so we could use it mounted on a truck or as a semi-fixed position system. However at present I do not see such a system on the market just the individual parts. The only thing that system that comes close is the IM-SHORAD but we do not have any spare MOWAG that we could give up for conversion.

They are medium range not short range

Generally the medium range are radar guided which has advantages and disadvantages



Not forgetting we now have BOLIDE AFAIK

[Graylion]

Although someone mentioned that many of these items were referenced in the 2015 White Paper, great to see the EDP with additions listed out in a single document Here's hoping it gets completed now, after pay and conditions are firstly addressed ...

The Giraffe 1x is an amazing compact piece of kit, when compared to the original truck mounted Giraffe (40/PS70 I think) the Army used to operate with the RBS 70.

With the GBAD upgrades (radar and RBS 70 replacement planned) to include CUAV, is any consideration being given to a mounted gun/missile combination such as USMC JLTV-based MIDAS or US Army IM-SHORAD for close in protection? Possibly a slightly lower cost version of such a system, but of a similar concept. Or if available, a common land/naval system based on the Thales LMM and 30mm cannon a la MSI Seahawk Sigma. And to round things out as a 'proper' RBS 70 replacement, maybe something like RBS 98 or if money existed CAMM...

Apologies for Waltering a bit, but as the areas are being considered in the near future, just wondering what the thoughts were on the subject.

I would love for us to have CAMM with Groundmaster 200 - which is both surveillance to 250 km and engagement to 100 km.

[EUFighter]

I would love for us to have CAMM with Groundmaster 200 - which is both surveillance to 250 km and engagement to 100 km.

I was a bit confused by the post until I checked the Thales website, the Groundmaster 200 has a "detection range : 250 km surveillance mode / 100 km engagement mode".
The CAMM missile has a range of at least 25km, the CAMM-ER is likely to have a range in excess of 40km.

[A/TEL]

Is it intrusive or can it be bolted on to existing chambers?

Will require drydocking and hull cutting (small incision)

[DeV]

From EDP there are 2 radar projects:

1 in planning stage - Ground Based Air Defence (GBAD) Radar – this is an important asset used by the Artillery Corps – an updated system is due for acquisition in the period 2021-22. Replacement of the current GBAD radars operated by the Artillery Corp operate with a powerful 3D surveillance radar and C4I functionality; expected to have a UAV Detection ability, C- RAM (Counter Rockets, Artillery and Munitions) allied to a system that can be operated remotely or locally with the ability to provide a networked air picture.

1 at pre-planning stage - primary radar system

Assuming the second one is medium range

[na grohmiti]

From EDP there are 2 radar projects:

1 in planning stage - Ground Based Air Defence (GBAD) Radar – this is an important asset used by the Artillery Corps – an updated system is due for acquisition in the period 2021-22. Replacement of the current GBAD radars operated by the Artillery Corp operate with a powerful 3D surveillance radar and C4I functionality; expected to have a UAV Detection ability, C- RAM (Counter Rockets, Artillery and Munitions) allied to a system that can be operated remotely or locally with the ability to provide a networked air picture.

1 at pre-planning stage - primary radar system

Assuming the second one is medium range

While the ground radar we have is a great bit of kit, I don't think it successfully integrated with the LTAV in the way it was first hoped. I remember in the early days hope being expressed that it could be mounted on a mast externally, and operated from within the vehicle, instead of it's current tripod and associated weatherproof operators console.
But I was never a gunner, and I may be wrong.

Has the "Quad" Primary Radar in Casement Aerodromel been upgraded since it was installed in the 80s?

[DeV]

While the ground radar we have is a great bit of kit, I don't think it successfully integrated with the LTAV in the way it was first hoped. I remember in the early days hope being expressed that it could be mounted on a mast externally, and operated from within the vehicle, instead of it's current tripod and associated weatherproof operators console.
But I was never a gunner, and I may be wrong.

Has the "Quad" Primary Radar in Casement Aerodromel been upgraded since it was installed in the 80s?

These aren’t ground surveillance radars that are proposed but air surveillance (Giraffe Mk4 replacement and potentially a Ground based medium range air Surveillance radar.

I can’t think I remember seeing a LTAV with GSR fitted but open to correction

[na grohmiti]

These aren’t ground surveillance radars that are proposed but air surveillance (Giraffe Mk4 replacement and potentially a Ground based medium range air Surveillance radar.

I can’t think I remember seeing a LTAV with GSR fitted but open to correction

Apologies. I missed the A part of GBAD.
Is Flycatcher gone? How does VSHORAD compare with GBAD? Is it the same?

[DeV]

Apologies. I missed the A part of GBAD.
Is Flycatcher gone? How does VSHORAD compare with GBAD? Is it the same?

Flycatcher went with the EL70s long ago

DF AD is now BOILIDE with Giraffe Mk4 (Hagglunds mounted)

VSHORAD is as it says short range. GBAD is more encompassing of all ranges, that doesn’t mean we are getting Iron Dome or Patriot of course

[EUFighter]

Apologies. I missed the A part of GBAD.
Is Flycatcher gone? How does VSHORAD compare with GBAD? Is it the same?

Definitions are constantly changing in terms of range and altitude.
GBAD is a generic term meaning all Ground Base Air Defence systems. It could be a MANPAD or a S-400.
VSHORAD is the latest term Very Short Range Air Defence. It is mainly a MANPAD sized weapon linked to a fire control system and or targeting system.

Today VSHORAD normally means a range out to 8km, the next grouping is Short Range which goes to about 25-30km, them medium range which can cover out to 80-100km and then above that is long range. But there is no set convention and while one manufacturer may say for a particular range it is MR another will say LR.

[Rhodes]

Just an update on equipment projects from what the part-time MfD has been saying.

52 Mowags upgraded, all completed by 2022.
28 more AUV's ordered.
The first of the 120 Scania TCV's to be delivered before the end of the year, all delivered by 2023.
The P50's MLU is ongoing.
MRV ship still in planning. (Only the four P60's are still operational, everything else tied up.)
The Software Defined Radios will not enter service before 2023.

[na grohmiti]

Just an update on equipment projects from what the part-time MfD has been saying.

52 Mowags upgraded, all completed by 2022.
28 more AUV's ordered.
The first of the 120 Scania TCV's to be delivered before the end of the year, all delivered by 2023.
The P50's MLU is ongoing.
MRV ship still in planning. (Only the four P60's are still operational, everything else tied up.)
The Software Defined Radios will not enter service before 2023.

Given this morning's Examiner article on the MRV, has there been a material movement on this project of note? Did the above come from PQs or another announcement?