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  • #31
    3D would even be an improvement

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    • #32
      Alternatively Thales Groundmaster 60

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Rocinante View Post
        Although someone mentioned that many of these items were referenced in the 2015 White Paper, great to see the EDP with additions listed out in a single document Here's hoping it gets completed now, after pay and conditions are firstly addressed ...

        The Giraffe 1x is an amazing compact piece of kit, when compared to the original truck mounted Giraffe (40/PS70 I think) the Army used to operate with the RBS 70.

        With the GBAD upgrades (radar and RBS 70 replacement planned) to include CUAV, is any consideration being given to a mounted gun/missile combination such as USMC JLTV-based MIDAS or US Army IM-SHORAD for close in protection? Possibly a slightly lower cost version of such a system, but of a similar concept. Or if available, a common land/naval system based on the Thales LMM and 30mm cannon a la MSI Seahawk Sigma. And to round things out as a 'proper' RBS 70 replacement, maybe something like RBS 98 or if money existed CAMM...

        Apologies for Waltering a bit, but as the areas are being considered in the near future, just wondering what the thoughts were on the subject.

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        • #34
          I don't think we have fired a single RBS70 on Irish soil, but it remains a perfectly useful point defence weapon for our purposes (when combined with cannon).
          In real terms our Air Defence radar and weaponry has been designed around controlling a small piece of airspace, such as a conference of World Leaders taking place on our isle, or a visiting world leader, should he chose to stay here overnight.
          Don't expect anything from the USA any time soon though.
          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by meridian View Post
            Although someone mentioned that many of these items were referenced in the 2015 White Paper, great to see the EDP with additions listed out in a single document Here's hoping it gets completed now, after pay and conditions are firstly addressed ...

            The Giraffe 1x is an amazing compact piece of kit, when compared to the original truck mounted Giraffe (40/PS70 I think) the Army used to operate with the RBS 70.

            With the GBAD upgrades (radar and RBS 70 replacement planned) to include CUAV, is any consideration being given to a mounted gun/missile combination such as USMC JLTV-based MIDAS or US Army IM-SHORAD for close in protection? Possibly a slightly lower cost version of such a system, but of a similar concept. Or if available, a common land/naval system based on the Thales LMM and 30mm cannon a la MSI Seahawk Sigma. And to round things out as a 'proper' RBS 70 replacement, maybe something like RBS 98 or if money existed CAMM...

            Apologies for Waltering a bit, but as the areas are being considered in the near future, just wondering what the thoughts were on the subject.
            Items like the RBS98 (IRIS-T SL), CAMM and NASAMS are all much larger and more capable than the systems they are replacing, typically they have ranges of 25km while the systems they replace had ranges closer to 8km. This makes the systems and the missiles much more expensive that those they have replaced.

            IMHO the Giraffe 1x linked to the newer RBS70NG would be a good basis for a SHORAD system.

            To complete the package and tackle small/very small drones there should be some form of AUDS for soft-kill capability with the hard-kill coming from a rapid fire 30mm cannon with ABM capability. For the latter I know the 40mm fans will say that the Bofors is better with ABM but I tend to think the rapid fire of 30mm together with the ability to carry more round for the same weight/volume better matches the drone defence mode.

            Ideally all would be in a palletised system so we could use it mounted on a truck or as a semi-fixed position system. However at present I do not see such a system on the market just the individual parts. The only thing that system that comes close is the IM-SHORAD but we do not have any spare MOWAG that we could give up for conversion.
            Last edited by EUFighter; 30 June 2020, 15:16.

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            • #36
              I posted this on the UNIFIL thread in 2018.
              It puts into context here the sort of air surveillance and air defence capability that is currently in use on a peacekeeping mission, which includes C-RAM and C-UAV detection.
              It's possible the DF could be required to deploy overseas with this capability in the near future.

              Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
              With all the talk on another thread on the RBS 70 I thought I'd post this recent video on French air surveillance and defence in Lebanon with UNIFIL using the Mistral missile.
              English subtitles in settings.

              The radar seen I think is the MARTHA NC1 system.
              Ive also seen the COBRA Counter Battery Radar up on Hill 880.
              The French also use the VAB with 20mm gun seen in the video for air defence alongside the Mistral.

              Its a very good example of how air surveillance and defence could be carried out using the RBS 70 and Giraffe radar on a peacekeeping mission.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                I posted this on the UNIFIL thread in 2018.
                It puts into context here the sort of air surveillance and air defence capability that is currently in use on a peacekeeping mission, which includes C-RAM and C-UAV detection.
                It's possible the DF could be required to deploy overseas with this capability in the near future.
                France has deployed a lot of high end equipment to their mission in UNIFIL over the years: Leclerc MBT and GCT-155 SPH being just some of the toys they deployed. Not sure how much was requested by the UN!

                It would be interesting if UNIFIL was to be responsible for policing the airspace over it Area of Operations, especially for drones. If there was an authorisation to engage an illegal drone activity then it would make sense. There is no point in taking kit with you unless it can be used.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                  I don't think we have fired a single RBS70 on Irish soil, but it remains a perfectly useful point defence weapon for our purposes (when combined with cannon).
                  In real terms our Air Defence radar and weaponry has been designed around controlling a small piece of airspace, such as a conference of World Leaders taking place on our isle, or a visiting world leader, should he chose to stay here overnight.
                  Don't expect anything from the USA any time soon though.
                  Disliked in error

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                    Items like the RBS98 (IRIS-T SL), CAMM and NASAMS are all much larger and more capable than the systems they are replacing, typically they have ranges of 25km while the systems they replace had ranges closer to 8km. This makes the systems and the missiles much more expensive that those they have replaced.

                    IMHO the Giraffe 1x linked to the newer RBS70NG would be a good basis for a SHORAD system.

                    To complete the package and tackle small/very small drones there should be some form of AUDS for soft-kill capability with the hard-kill coming from a rapid fire 30mm cannon with ABM capability. For the latter I know the 40mm fans will say that the Bofors is better with ABM but I tend to think the rapid fire of 30mm together with the ability to carry more round for the same weight/volume better matches the drone defence mode.

                    Ideally all would be in a palletised system so we could use it mounted on a truck or as a semi-fixed position system. However at present I do not see such a system on the market just the individual parts. The only thing that system that comes close is the IM-SHORAD but we do not have any spare MOWAG that we could give up for conversion.
                    They are medium range not short range

                    Generally the medium range are radar guided which has advantages and disadvantages



                    Not forgetting we now have BOLIDE AFAIK

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by meridian View Post
                      Although someone mentioned that many of these items were referenced in the 2015 White Paper, great to see the EDP with additions listed out in a single document Here's hoping it gets completed now, after pay and conditions are firstly addressed ...

                      The Giraffe 1x is an amazing compact piece of kit, when compared to the original truck mounted Giraffe (40/PS70 I think) the Army used to operate with the RBS 70.

                      With the GBAD upgrades (radar and RBS 70 replacement planned) to include CUAV, is any consideration being given to a mounted gun/missile combination such as USMC JLTV-based MIDAS or US Army IM-SHORAD for close in protection? Possibly a slightly lower cost version of such a system, but of a similar concept. Or if available, a common land/naval system based on the Thales LMM and 30mm cannon a la MSI Seahawk Sigma. And to round things out as a 'proper' RBS 70 replacement, maybe something like RBS 98 or if money existed CAMM...

                      Apologies for Waltering a bit, but as the areas are being considered in the near future, just wondering what the thoughts were on the subject.
                      I would love for us to have CAMM with Groundmaster 200 - which is both surveillance to 250 km and engagement to 100 km.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                        I would love for us to have CAMM with Groundmaster 200 - which is both surveillance to 250 km and engagement to 100 km.
                        I was a bit confused by the post until I checked the Thales website, the Groundmaster 200 has a "detection range : 250 km surveillance mode / 100 km engagement mode".
                        The CAMM missile has a range of at least 25km, the CAMM-ER is likely to have a range in excess of 40km.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                          Is it intrusive or can it be bolted on to existing chambers?

                          Will require drydocking and hull cutting (small incision)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            From EDP there are 2 radar projects:

                            1 in planning stage - Ground Based Air Defence (GBAD) Radar – this is an important asset used by the Artillery Corps – an updated system is due for acquisition in the period 2021-22. Replacement of the current GBAD radars operated by the Artillery Corp operate with a powerful 3D surveillance radar and C4I functionality; expected to have a UAV Detection ability, C- RAM (Counter Rockets, Artillery and Munitions) allied to a system that can be operated remotely or locally with the ability to provide a networked air picture.

                            1 at pre-planning stage - primary radar system

                            Assuming the second one is medium range
                            Last edited by DeV; 7 July 2020, 11:05.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              From EDP there are 2 radar projects:

                              1 in planning stage - Ground Based Air Defence (GBAD) Radar – this is an important asset used by the Artillery Corps – an updated system is due for acquisition in the period 2021-22. Replacement of the current GBAD radars operated by the Artillery Corp operate with a powerful 3D surveillance radar and C4I functionality; expected to have a UAV Detection ability, C- RAM (Counter Rockets, Artillery and Munitions) allied to a system that can be operated remotely or locally with the ability to provide a networked air picture.

                              1 at pre-planning stage - primary radar system

                              Assuming the second one is medium range
                              While the ground radar we have is a great bit of kit, I don't think it successfully integrated with the LTAV in the way it was first hoped. I remember in the early days hope being expressed that it could be mounted on a mast externally, and operated from within the vehicle, instead of it's current tripod and associated weatherproof operators console.
                              But I was never a gunner, and I may be wrong.

                              Has the "Quad" Primary Radar in Casement Aerodromel been upgraded since it was installed in the 80s?
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                                While the ground radar we have is a great bit of kit, I don't think it successfully integrated with the LTAV in the way it was first hoped. I remember in the early days hope being expressed that it could be mounted on a mast externally, and operated from within the vehicle, instead of it's current tripod and associated weatherproof operators console.
                                But I was never a gunner, and I may be wrong.

                                Has the "Quad" Primary Radar in Casement Aerodromel been upgraded since it was installed in the 80s?
                                These aren’t ground surveillance radars that are proposed but air surveillance (Giraffe Mk4 replacement and potentially a Ground based medium range air Surveillance radar.

                                I can’t think I remember seeing a LTAV with GSR fitted but open to correction

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