Thanks Thanks:  28
Likes Likes:  78
Dislikes Dislikes:  2
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 89
  1. #26
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,135
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Exactly so what jobs could non-merchant navy NSR officers do at sea which wouldn’t require them to be understudy for significant periods?

    Relief boarding officer



    Btw not knocking NSR officers it isn’t there fault but if they are to be put on OPVs they should be able to do something to help
    With no disrespect intended, none. Not in the current system. The only alternative is to recruit NSR officers directly from the small pool of professional mariners working in merchant marine who still reside in Ireland.
    You will however increase that pool if you look for people capable of handling a small vessel in open waters, ie, those who work in the fishing or maritime towing or Workboat area. But that would require an appropriate vessel for them to command.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  2. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
  3. #27
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    East
    Posts
    188
    Post Thanks / Like
    This is getting interesting, what does an NSR officer need to be able to operate on a ship, without supervision or understudy. What do they need to operate a new small boat as suggested above. There is another thread on this and might be best to continue there. Looking at the other thread they had boats before so who drove those, NCOs, PTEs or Officers and FTT did they have. Seems that's all they need to do.

  4. Likes DeV liked this post
  5. #28
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    22,902
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    This is getting interesting, what does an NSR officer need to be able to operate on a ship, without supervision or understudy. What do they need to operate a new small boat as suggested above. There is another thread on this and might be best to continue there. Looking at the other thread they had boats before so who drove those, NCOs, PTEs or Officers and FTT did they have. Seems that's all they need to do.
    2 questions there:
    (a) Do you want to be able to make a NSR Officer interchangeable with a NS Officer? If you do you need equivalent training a (full time) degree in nautical science and then some

    (b) is there discreet jobs onboard an OPV that a NSR Officer could specialise in if they don’t hold relevant civilian (or NS) qualifications to gain a Naval Watchkeeping Certificate? That would be attainable

    If we want NSR officers to be (at least to a degree of) interchangeable with a NS Officer the only option is those who are already professionally qualified (and experienced). Which will limit those interested, available and more Possibly importantly For the NSR when they are available. You could find yourself in a situation, where if all NSR officers are professional seafarers that they aren’t even available for weekly parades 50% of the time as they are away with work.

    If we just want the NSR officers to be capable of operating launches that is probably very doable but it is arguably seagoing (as in OPV) personnel that the NS needs more from the NSR
    Last edited by DeV; 29th June 2020 at 17:40.

  6. Thanks Truck Driver thanked for this post
  7. #29
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,135
    Post Thanks / Like
    Boats are commanded by a Coxn, usually a junior rate. Small patrol craft can be commanded either by senior rates, or depending on its role, a Junior officer.
    For example the Archers of which we speak are commanded usually by a Lieutenant, but he is also the OC of that University Royal Naval Unit. There is a whole load of other URNU bullshit that they also get up to that is irrelevant, needless to say they are designed to groom university students into Her majestys naval officers, and are crewed accordingly.
    If you want the future NSR vessel to act as a mothership for Rhibs, then an officer would be expected to command it, and be familiar with navigation planning, and use of marine comms in a coastal environment. Most of which can be covered by a yachtsmaster course.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  8. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes DeV liked this post
  9. #30
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    East
    Posts
    188
    Post Thanks / Like
    Copied from other thread

    Their is nothing stopping NSR lads from getting courses in the Naval BTC. Or is there, the topic of training is over on the NSR commissioning thread buts more like a bashing of NSR officers. As said in the other thread why dont they do a yacht masters course?. I must look it up but on both threads it seems to suggest that there must be a particular rank that drives a boat and a rank that commands it and a rank that controls it all. So what would they be, if someone could draw a comparison to a mowag it might help us understand.

  10. #31
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    22,902
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Boats are commanded by a Coxn, usually a junior rate. Small patrol craft can be commanded either by senior rates, or depending on its role, a Junior officer.
    For example the Archers of which we speak are commanded usually by a Lieutenant, but he is also the OC of that University Royal Naval Unit. There is a whole load of other URNU bullshit that they also get up to that is irrelevant, needless to say they are designed to groom university students into Her majestys naval officers, and are crewed accordingly.
    If you want the future NSR vessel to act as a mothership for Rhibs, then an officer would be expected to command it, and be familiar with navigation planning, and use of marine comms in a coastal environment. Most of which can be covered by a yachtsmaster course.
    Would that allow them to undertake useful roles on an OPV?
    The theory element from a quick google looks doable in a NSR context but is the practical?

  11. #32
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    East
    Posts
    188
    Post Thanks / Like
    I dont know, a mowag has a crew of 3 and takes about 8 weeks of training depending on what part of the crew you are. Its basically driving but on a larger scale and can cause massive damage if you hit anything.

  12. #33
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    22,902
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    Copied from other thread

    Their is nothing stopping NSR lads from getting courses in the Naval BTC. Or is there, the topic of training is over on the NSR commissioning thread buts more like a bashing of NSR officers. As said in the other thread why dont they do a yacht masters course?. I must look it up but on both threads it seems to suggest that there must be a particular rank that drives a boat and a rank that commands it and a rank that controls it all. So what would they be, if someone could draw a comparison to a mowag it might help us understand.
    Not intended in any way by me to be bashing. But my question stands - is there jobs that a non-professionally qualified NSR Officer could do on a NS OPV - I don’t know the answer hence the question (I do know that there is no way they could get the sea time or qualifications to get a NWC (unless they are working in role as a civvy).

    Ok I’ll give it to you in MOWAGS (@truckdriver, help me out if I’m incorrect on anything) - why are there no AR MOWAG drivers?:

    Assuming you are a min Pte 3*, pass ITs, manual handling, medical (including eyesight etc), you have a full civvy car licence and are at least 21 years of age

    You have to do a min of 4 different driver modules of at least 5 weeks plus a specific number of hours practical driving experience on some vehicles before you will be considered for the APC Crewmans Cse (which is a number of weeks long)

    There is nothing to stop reservists doing it if they qualify, get a place on the course and are available

  13. #34
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,135
    Post Thanks / Like
    Can we get a thread split/merge please?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  14. Likes DeV liked this post
  15. #35
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,841
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Would that allow them to undertake useful roles on an OPV?
    The theory element from a quick google looks doable in a NSR context but is the practical?
    The argument and discussion is not offering solutions. Newly commissioned reserve officers could be trained as I outlined. There are Offshore courses available in Power boating, RHIB handling, and at Yachtmaster level, the latter would meet requirements for eventual mentoring as a Seaman Watch Officer.
    All boats up to crewed launches are I/c of a Coxswain . The launches at 50ft would be supervised by the Regular cadre for day to day minding but could be skippered by a senior NCO or Officer who passed a power boat handling course. Within a year, a reserve unit should be able to take a crewed launch to sea. The NSR must be utilised to build their confidence and professional worth. It would be worth while reading how our neighbours train their Naval reserve.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 29th June 2020 at 20:09.

  16. Likes DeV liked this post
  17. #36
    CQMS
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Location
    East
    Posts
    188
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Not intended in any way by me to be bashing. But my question stands - is there jobs that a non-professionally qualified NSR Officer could do on a NS OPV - I don’t know the answer hence the question (I do know that there is no way they could get the sea time or qualifications to get a NWC (unless they are working in role as a civvy).

    Ok I’ll give it to you in MOWAGS (@truckdriver, help me out if I’m incorrect on anything) - why are there no AR MOWAG drivers?:

    Assuming you are a min Pte 3*, pass ITs, manual handling, medical (including eyesight etc), you have a full civvy car licence and are at least 21 years of age

    You have to do a min of 4 different driver modules of at least 5 weeks plus a specific number of hours practical driving experience on some vehicles before you will be considered for the APC Crewmans Cse (which is a number of weeks long)

    There is nothing to stop reservists doing it if they qualify, get a place on the course and are available
    I know how the equals work for a mowag. What I dont is how a yacht masters is going to train the NSR to operate their boats as some have suggested ie hoardings, Rhino weapons platforms etc. It cant be as simple as a civi yacht master.

  18. Likes DeV liked this post
  19. #37
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    22,902
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The argument and discussion is not offering solutions. Newly commissioned reserve officers could be trained as I outlined. There are Offshore courses available in Power boating, RHIB handling, and at Yachtmaster level, the latter would meet requirements for eventual mentoring as a Seaman Watch Officer.
    All boats up to crewed launches are I/c of a Coxswain . The launches at 50ft would be supervised by the Regular cadre for day to day minding but could be skippered by a senior NCO or Officer who passed a power boat handling course. Within a year, a reserve unit should be able to take a crewed launch to sea. The NSR must be utilised to build their confidence and professional worth. It would be worth while reading how our neighbours train their Naval reserve.
    Ok that’s for launch ops

    What about on OPVs? Is there tasks that they could do unsupervised without a massive amount of courses, sea time, mentoring, etc that is reasonable feasible?

    I’m genuinely interested, because the NSR seamen and L/Seamen are going to sea on OPVs (not sure about more senior NCOs)

  20. #38
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    22,902
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    With no disrespect intended, none. Not in the current system. The only alternative is to recruit NSR officers directly from the small pool of professional mariners working in merchant marine who still reside in Ireland.
    You will however increase that pool if you look for people capable of handling a small vessel in open waters, ie, those who work in the fishing or maritime towing or Workboat area. But that would require an appropriate vessel for them to command.
    So launches?

  21. #39
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,135
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    I know how the equals work for a mowag. What I dont is how a yacht masters is going to train the NSR to operate their boats as some have suggested ie hoardings, Rhino weapons platforms etc. It cant be as simple as a civi yacht master.
    You need to learn the difference between boats and ships then.
    Boat=the small thing that usually hangs from a crane on a ship. Normal crew of 2.
    Ship=big grey think with accommodation for 50 or so, all ranks, carries a number of boats for boarding
    Launch= Bigger than a boat but smaller than a ship.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  22. Likes DeV liked this post
  23. #40
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,841
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Ok that’s for launch ops

    What about on OPVs? Is there tasks that they could do unsupervised without a massive amount of courses, sea time, mentoring, etc that is reasonable feasible?

    I’m genuinely interested, because the NSR seamen and L/Seamen are going to sea on OPVs (not sure about more senior NCOs)
    If you remove mentoring and some kinds of craft handling from the experience chain of sea going personnel they will arrive on board like press ganged civilians and must be supervised for their own safety. it's a chicken and egg conundrum.
    Most navies use small craft such as Archers to train young officers and seamen in craft handling. They get assigned to larger craft eventually to learn routines and systems at sea. Any NSR's I took to sea were well looked after by crew and by end of voyage fitted in usefully. Officers are a particular problem and must be trained by a graduated process to be a bridge watchkeeper. Given the will and inputs it is doable.

  24. #41
    BQMS Auldsod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Wesht
    Posts
    624
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    If you remove mentoring and some kinds of craft handling from the experience chain of sea going personnel they will arrive on board like press ganged civilians and must be supervised for their own safety. it's a chicken and egg conundrum.
    Most navies use small craft such as Archers to train young officers and seamen in craft handling. They get assigned to larger craft eventually to learn routines and systems at sea. Any NSR's I took to sea were well looked after by crew and by end of voyage fitted in usefully. Officers are a particular problem and must be trained by a graduated process to be a bridge watchkeeper. Given the will and inputs it is doable.
    How would you propose to bring an NSR officer up to bridge watchkeeper with two weeks time they have for FTT training and a few weekends per year?

    The difference isn't with will and ability - it's time.

  25. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes DeV liked this post
  26. #42
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    6,918
    Post Thanks / Like
    apart from watchkeeping and small boat handling, are NSR personnel involved in engineering functions?

  27. #43
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,135
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    apart from watchkeeping and small boat handling, are NSR personnel involved in engineering functions?
    No.
    All NSR are part of seamans branch.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  28. #44
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,841
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    How would you propose to bring an NSR officer up to bridge watchkeeper with two weeks time they have for FTT training and a few weekends per year?

    The difference isn't with will and ability - it's time.
    It's simple, and it is individual will, and a willingness to work at home and attend local lectures. Naval Service needs to Draft a syllabus for Basic Bridge watch keeper and organise a course with NMCI or RYCA. As I said my Doctor got his yacht masters certificate while in full time practice. It's a top down obligation from the Service and mustn't be talked into the dustbin. Simon probably is one himself as he did a world voyage in a family yacht.

  29. Likes ODIN liked this post
  30. #45
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,135
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    It's simple, and it is individual will, and a willingness to work at home and attend local lectures. Naval Service needs to Draft a syllabus for Basic Bridge watch keeper and organise a course with NMCI or RYCA. As I said my Doctor got his yacht masters certificate while in full time practice. It's a top down obligation from the Service and mustn't be talked into the dustbin. Simon probably is one himself as he did a world voyage in a family yacht.
    Most NSR officers have already completed, at their own cost and time, yacht-master cert, only for the boats in which they practised to be taken from them, and left rot in Haulbowline.
    Would you leave your doctor stand watch aboard L.E. Eithne if you were it's captain?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  31. #46
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    22,902
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    It's simple, and it is individual will, and a willingness to work at home and attend local lectures. Naval Service needs to Draft a syllabus for Basic Bridge watch keeper and organise a course with NMCI or RYCA. As I said my Doctor got his yacht masters certificate while in full time practice. It's a top down obligation from the Service and mustn't be talked into the dustbin. Simon probably is one himself as he did a world voyage in a family yacht.
    So will that allow them to act as a unsupervised watchkeeper on an OPV?

  32. #47
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    22,902
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    If you remove mentoring and some kinds of craft handling from the experience chain of sea going personnel they will arrive on board like press ganged civilians and must be supervised for their own safety. it's a chicken and egg conundrum.
    Most navies use small craft such as Archers to train young officers and seamen in craft handling. They get assigned to larger craft eventually to learn routines and systems at sea. Any NSR's I took to sea were well looked after by crew and by end of voyage fitted in usefully. Officers are a particular problem and must be trained by a graduated process to be a bridge watchkeeper. Given the will and inputs it is doable.
    A launch should be doable

    The NS needs OPV watcheepers!

    NSR junior ratings go to see and do the job within limits of training once experienced... Junior officers do go to sea and act as understudy but they don’t AFAIK do anything unsupervised (unless they have an external qualification)

  33. #48
    Commandant
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,841
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    A launch should be doable

    The NS needs OPV watcheepers!

    NSR junior ratings go to see and do the job within limits of training once experienced... Junior officers do go to sea and act as understudy but they don’t AFAIK do anything unsupervised (unless they have an external qualification)
    They can do Officer of the Day ( Orderly Officer ) in port, OOW at anchor, and second hand to the watch officer at sea. They can accompany a Boarding officer to other vessels .The main need is to examine and qualify in AstroNav, Seamanship , Chartwork, and Meteorology. They would also need a basic Gunnery course to immediately cover weapons up to 20mm and later 57mm/76mm. The appointments on board as well as being Watchkeepers are Gunnery and Boarding Officer, Navigation and Communications Officer, Executive Officer and Second in Command. The NSR officer could aspire to a Nav/Comms/watchkeeping role when duly qualified.

  34. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
  35. #49
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Back in Dublin , thank god
    Posts
    273
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    It's simple, and it is individual will, and a willingness to work at home and attend local lectures. Naval Service needs to Draft a syllabus for Basic Bridge watch keeper and organise a course with NMCI or RYCA. As I said my Doctor got his yacht masters certificate while in full time practice. It's a top down obligation from the Service and mustn't be talked into the dustbin. Simon probably is one himself as he did a world voyage in a family yacht.
    I have my Yachtmasters and 30 years of offshore cruising. I have no illusions about my ability to perform any meaningful role on an NS vessel but I could probably do OOW , if only on the basis that I'd know when to scream for the Skipper !
    “The nation that will insist on drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking done by cowards.”
    ― Thucydides

  36. Thanks DeV thanked for this post
    Likes na grohmiti, EUFighter liked this post
  37. #50
    Commander in Chief
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    6,135
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    They can do Officer of the Day ( Orderly Officer ) in port, OOW at anchor, and second hand to the watch officer at sea. They can accompany a Boarding officer to other vessels .The main need is to examine and qualify in AstroNav, Seamanship , Chartwork, and Meteorology. They would also need a basic Gunnery course to immediately cover weapons up to 20mm and later 57mm/76mm. The appointments on board as well as being Watchkeepers are Gunnery and Boarding Officer, Navigation and Communications Officer, Executive Officer and Second in Command. The NSR officer could aspire to a Nav/Comms/watchkeeping role when duly qualified.
    Maybe it's easier now but Astronav is quite involved and in my day, required quite a high proficiency in spherical trigonometry. It's not for everyone. (I actually understand it better now than 30 years ago, but I would still be relying on a pretty high end scientific calculator for assistance, once I have the formulae in fornt of me).
    And Nories Tables of course.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •