Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Irish trawler 'given order to move on' by Royal Navy frigate

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
    I would not limit the comparison to just NZ. When doing comparisons it is best to have a mix, to have some which have a lot in common and others where there is not so much. The latter could just provide an insight that was missing from the others. IMHO a comparison would include New Zealand, Australia, Denmark, Portugal and Chile.
    Why include Australia? You are adding a much larger nation (economically, population etc), hell Portugal and Chile are also much larger population sizes.

    Comment


    • #77
      If we were to buy 2-3 containerised sonars that would be a game changer. To avoid the issues of permanently Fittings to the ship I’m sure we could also containerise the various consoles and cabinets required.

      It isn’t completely clear yet afaik if the C295s are also going to be transport (palletised FITS system). If we fitted a MAD that makes it Afaik permanent MPA/ASW aircraft.

      Important to remember that it is our EEZ that we are responsible for policing. From a fisheries (and submarine cables) perspective It isn’t just our economy we are responsible for protecting. It is the EU, but also U.K. and US with regard to submarine cables.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
        Why include Australia? You are adding a much larger nation (economically, population etc), hell Portugal and Chile are also much larger population sizes.
        If you want to do a proper comparison you do not only do it with directly comparable ones.

        Australia:
        A naval tradition that was born out of the RN.
        A country that not only has a large patrol area but also one that regularly deploys overseas.
        A country which has experienced rapid growth and thus also faces a recruitment and retention challenge.
        A navy that has had a few procurement issues from which they have learnt.

        Portugal
        The population may be bigger but the economy is not.
        Portugal has its own unique naval tradition being the oldest continuously serving navy. More than 200 yrs older than the Royal Navy.
        It is like us a medium sized North Atlantic nation.
        It is a Navy that in the last 40 years had to transition from a colonial navy to a modern European navy.

        Chile
        Firstly, the modern submarine was invented by an Irishman and the Chilean Navy is the only navy with a submarine named after an Irish man! I know I could also have gone with the Irish connection to the Argentine Navy but they are not doing so well at the moment.
        Chile would hopefully provide the totally different view towards how to organise and operate a navy. It has a mix of Spanish and British naval traditions which is unique.
        It has a wide mix of capabilities which it is useful to examine.

        These are just IMHO a few countries against which we could do comparisons. I have left out the large navies like RN, MN and USN as there focus is very much different than anything we might aspire too.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          If we were to buy 2-3 containerised sonars that would be a game changer. To avoid the issues of permanently Fittings to the ship I’m sure we could also containerise the various consoles and cabinets required.
          A containerised system needs to be linked into a CMS network. When hunting subs there needs to be close co-operation between the ASW operators and the ships navigation and weapons systems.

          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          It isn’t completely clear yet afaik if the C295s are also going to be transport (palletised FITS system). If we fitted a MAD that makes it Afaik permanent MPA/ASW aircraft.
          Fitting the sonobuoy dispenser is what would stop the aircraft being transporters as it is located on the starboard side of the aircraft between the aft side door and the ramp.

          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          Important to remember that it is our EEZ that we are responsible for policing. From a fisheries (and submarine cables) perspective It isn’t just our economy we are responsible for protecting. It is the EU, but also U.K. and US with regard to submarine cables.
          That is the point, we are responsible for a much greater economic impact than just for fishing.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
            Why include Australia? You are adding a much larger nation (economically, population etc), hell Portugal and Chile are also much larger population sizes.
            Of the 5 million club. Norway and Denmark definitely, then New Zealand, because the NZDF now has two glaring capability gaps in its force structure - no air combat and only two frigates. Though all three have their strengths and weaknesses, an amalgam of all three would probably give Ireland "the benchmark" small defence force.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
              If you want to do a proper comparison you do not only do it with directly comparable ones.

              Australia:
              A naval tradition that was born out of the RN.
              A country that not only has a large patrol area but also one that regularly deploys overseas.
              A country which has experienced rapid growth and thus also faces a recruitment and retention challenge.
              A navy that has had a few procurement issues from which they have learnt.

              Portugal
              The population may be bigger but the economy is not.
              Portugal has its own unique naval tradition being the oldest continuously serving navy. More than 200 yrs older than the Royal Navy.
              It is like us a medium sized North Atlantic nation.
              It is a Navy that in the last 40 years had to transition from a colonial navy to a modern European navy.

              Chile
              Firstly, the modern submarine was invented by an Irishman and the Chilean Navy is the only navy with a submarine named after an Irish man! I know I could also have gone with the Irish connection to the Argentine Navy but they are not doing so well at the moment.
              Chile would hopefully provide the totally different view towards how to organise and operate a navy. It has a mix of Spanish and British naval traditions which is unique.
              It has a wide mix of capabilities which it is useful to examine.

              These are just IMHO a few countries against which we could do comparisons. I have left out the large navies like RN, MN and USN as there focus is very much different than anything we might aspire too.
              Australia is a large navy, you are talking about a navy that had carriers in service and now large Amphibs, with a GDP of over 1.4 trillion dollars, it is way outsized comparing it to anything we would be realistically build towards.

              As to Portugal, lets face reality, we all know our GP figures are wrong due to multinationals, and it's pretty clear either from Europe or from the OECD changes are coming, what our "GDP" figure might be in 5-10 years time is an open question. Same for Chile (and they have conscription as well).

              As mentioned below we should stick with comparing against other nations in the 4.5-6 million mark with relatively similar GDP figures.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                A containerised system needs to be linked into a CMS network. When hunting subs there needs to be close co-operation between the ASW operators and the ships navigation and weapons systems.
                Except we don’t have a CMS or any ASW weapons. I’m thinking of a do something scenario (ie we gain the ability to detected).

                The Sonar operator and all the cabinets, displays etc could be in the 2nd container. Container would need connecting to ships intercom system, power system etc





                Fitting the sonobuoy dispenser is what would stop the aircraft being transporters as it is located on the starboard side of the aircraft between the aft side door and the ramp.



                That is the point, we are responsible for a much greater economic impact than just for fishing.[/QUOTE]

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                  Australia is a large navy, you are talking about a navy that had carriers in service and now large Amphibs, with a GDP of over 1.4 trillion dollars, it is way outsized comparing it to anything we would be realistically build towards.

                  As to Portugal, lets face reality, we all know our GP figures are wrong due to multinationals, and it's pretty clear either from Europe or from the OECD changes are coming, what our "GDP" figure might be in 5-10 years time is an open question. Same for Chile (and they have conscription as well).

                  As mentioned below we should stick with comparing against other nations in the 4.5-6 million mark with relatively similar GDP figures.
                  Firstly the GDP argument, we have just agreed the basis for our contribution to the next 7 year EU budget. And what has been used our GDP figure, not our modified GNI but the full GDP figure. This is why will will be the 4th biggest net contributor after Germany, France and Sweden. So let stop this GDP debate.

                  The purpose of benchmarking with countries like Australia is not to try and replicate their navy in terms of size or vessels.
                  It is to learn lessons on how they do things.
                  • How do they decide upon the priorities for spending? On which projects are pushed and which are dropped.
                  • It is how do they do their threat analysis to determine what may happen in the future.
                  • It is how do the plan for the introduction of new capabilities to the fleet.
                  • It is how do they do equipment selection
                  • It is about how they train their people
                  • It is about how they retain their crews
                  • It is about how do they interact with the other services, army and air force.



                  As the benchmarking is looking at naval issues it might include looking at offshore industry, how they recruit and retain. Or looking at a shipping company like Arklow Shipping. The idea is not to replicate 1:1 but to learn lessons that can be amalgamated to generate a new strategic plan for the navy.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                    Firstly the GDP argument, we have just agreed the basis for our contribution to the next 7 year EU budget. And what has been used our GDP figure, not our modified GNI but the full GDP figure. This is why will will be the 4th biggest net contributor after Germany, France and Sweden. So let stop this GDP debate.
                    Well, no tbh, it's not going away and it's going to be an issue throughout that period. It's active at both the international level at the OECD and at the EU level, and we are earning no friends with our stance on digital tax stance. Our GDP figures are bullshit and we can't ignore that.
                    The purpose of benchmarking with countries like Australia is not to try and replicate their navy in terms of size or vessels.
                    It is to learn lessons on how they do things.
                    But Australia makes no sense, it's a high end mid tier nation I don't see the relevance to us. If you want to go your list then there's no reason to exclude how the USN or RN do the same thing even though they are still well above what we are.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      A benchmark does not have to include Australia, it was only included as there may be certain aspects that could be useful. One might be how well their 3 crew 2 ship rotation works on the Armidale patrol boats. Or the planning for the replacement of the Armidale PV and Huon MCMV with the new Arafura-class OPV's.

                      Naturally the large navies could be included, this was a key point in the Article by Dorcha Lea in the Examiner at the weekend.
                      A comparison of crew accommodation on USN and MN vessels would show major differences. USN - dry and austere, the MN - wine and large cabins. What effects does it have on retention, what effects does it have on building a team spirit....

                      I only omitted RN, MN and USN as they have a world wide operational sphere rather than a regional.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                        A benchmark does not have to include Australia, it was only included as there may be certain aspects that could be useful. One might be how well their 3 crew 2 ship rotation works on the Armidale patrol boats. Or the planning for the replacement of the Armidale PV and Huon MCMV with the new Arafura-class OPV's.

                        Naturally the large navies could be included, this was a key point in the Article by Dorcha Lea in the Examiner at the weekend.
                        A comparison of crew accommodation on USN and MN vessels would show major differences. USN - dry and austere, the MN - wine and large cabins. What effects does it have on retention, what effects does it have on building a team spirit....

                        I only omitted RN, MN and USN as they have a world wide operational sphere rather than a regional.
                        How we nationally consider defence must be in the context of the overall Defence strategy of Europe and in particular that of Europe. Our Budget source initially must be based on a reasonable portion of our GDP and the Taxes generated therefrom. If our Defence strategy is a solo run we are constrained by lack of support for our views on the need for acquiring Defence hardware. If on the other hand we were part of an EU Defence Strategy we could build to fulfill commitments allocated to us through our membership of EU Defence and avail of training and assistance to reach a common goal.The obvious choices are based on ASW and daily MPA patrols and solid Radar coverage nationwide to build a reliable picture of our territorial land , seas, and air.
                        Last edited by ancientmariner; 31 July 2020, 01:22.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                          A benchmark does not have to include Australia, it was only included as there may be certain aspects that could be useful. One might be how well their 3 crew 2 ship rotation works on the Armidale patrol boats. Or the planning for the replacement of the Armidale PV and Huon MCMV with the new Arafura-class OPV's.

                          Naturally the large navies could be included, this was a key point in the Article by Dorcha Lea in the Examiner at the weekend.
                          A comparison of crew accommodation on USN and MN vessels would show major differences. USN - dry and austere, the MN - wine and large cabins. What effects does it have on retention, what effects does it have on building a team spirit....

                          I only omitted RN, MN and USN as they have a world wide operational sphere rather than a regional.
                          The Armidale patrol boats were developed and allotted to assist Government agencies to police the areas between the island groups to the North of Australia to curtail illegal actions including unwanted immigration. They were based at Darwin and Cairns , and are suited to equatorial sea states. The crews on Armidale are at 25 and may require rotation because of onboard environment and accelerations of the Hull in seaways. Not sure we could use a 300t ship/boat for sustained patrolling but certainly could for training and sorties with regulars and NSR-boat deployment-ship handling-CRAA-and seapersonship.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                            The Armidale patrol boats were developed and allotted to assist Government agencies to police the areas between the island groups to the North of Australia to curtail illegal actions including unwanted immigration. They were based at Darwin and Cairns , and are suited to equatorial sea states. The crews on Armidale are at 25 and may require rotation because of onboard environment and accelerations of the Hull in seaways. Not sure we could use a 300t ship/boat for sustained patrolling but certainly could for training and sorties with regulars and NSR-boat deployment-ship handling-CRAA-and seapersonship.
                            The point is not to see if the Armidale's would be a suitable boat for us but to gain an insight into their experience doing a 3crew/2ship rotation, which was designed to increase the sea time of the boats. What did they find as the pro and cons both for the crews and for the vessels. What lessons will incorporate into the Arafura class ? How did they divide up what missions are performed by which vessel type and how do they transform that into requirements. And then too see if any of those lessons could be applied to our NS.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              RAN are phasing out the Armidales in the OPV role, passing them onto their smaller neighbours and getting Arafura (Lurrsen PV80) class OPVs with Helidecks. The type will also replace the Huon, Leeuwin and Paluma in their respective roles.

                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                                How we nationally consider defence must be in the context of the overall Defence strategy of Europe and in particular that of Europe. Our Budget source initially must be based on a reasonable portion of our GDP and the Taxes generated therefrom. If our Defence strategy is a solo run we are constrained by lack of support for our views on the need for acquiring Defence hardware. If on the other hand we were part of an EU Defence Strategy we could build to fulfill commitments allocated to us through our membership of EU Defence and avail of training and assistance to reach a common goal.The obvious choices are based on ASW and daily MPA patrols and solid Radar coverage nationwide to build a reliable picture of our territorial land , seas, and air.
                                There is already a common strategy of sorts with the CSDP, and there is even an implementation document:
                                https://eeas.europa.eu/sites/eeas/fi...392.en16_0.pdf

                                But there is a problem for those countries that are in NATO as their territorial defence is covered by their common commitments to NATO and is not to be duplicated in the CSDP. This is why if you read through the documents you will find they focus very much on external actions.

                                But that does not mean that as a start we cannot do something together with the non-NATO countries. And having an aligned strategy would be also welcomed by the NATO countries. If we are covering an area in a similar manner to which they would have too, then they would welcome that. We see this with how Sweden interacts closely with NATO while remaining formally outside the organisation.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X