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Irish trawler 'given order to move on' by Royal Navy frigate

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
    If the discussion about monitoring and intercepting foreign military flights in the Irish airspace is taking place, should their not be a similar discussion about submarines?
    Jesus no they'll be looking for at ieast 2 submarines on QRA 24/7/365

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    • #32
      Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
      The AU$35bn for the Hunter class is the project cost and includes more than just the initial cost to build the ships. Also they are high end multi-purpose equipped with a sensor and weapons fit closer to what would be considered a destroyer rather than a frigate.

      But smaller and cheaper ASW capable ships are possible, the Sigma 10514 and Incheon classes are around US$250m while the Type31 have a cost ceiling of £250m.
      Even the Finnish with their Squadron 2020 will produce a ASW capable vessel with the Pohjanmaa-class corvette (4 for €1,300).
      Well to be fair the 31s are pulling equipment from the older 23's and even with that I wouldn't be surprised if the price goes up and delivery slips. That being said as you say there are cheaper options available or coming available, what's the price for the Italian "light frigates" they are building, though their bows are just strange.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
        To be fair you are selecting the highest end warship in the Hunter for the role, there is and will be lower spec'd hulls that we could get if were interested in building up such capability, or build up the AC for more active MPA capabilities.
        I'm not saying Hunter, I'm sayin we take the old ANZACs
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
          I'm not saying Hunter, I'm sayin we take the old ANZACs
          ANZACs that will be 30 odd years old at the stage when they are replaced (and designed even before that), thats like suggesting that we buy some surplus 4th gen fighters for QRA and ignoring the costs of older aircraft. By the time the RAN are done with them I expect they will be fit for the scrappers.
          Last edited by Sparky42; 26 July 2020, 20:54.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by apc View Post
            Jesus no they'll be looking for at ieast 2 submarines on QRA 24/7/365
            This is all chicken and egg syndrome. A navy needs to set the practical aspects of its roles, and buy equipment to do that and sustain the capability when replacing vessels. Everytime you replace your ships Naval capability should stay the same. We need ASW, AS, AAM, MCM and give shore support. We had some of it and let it go.

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            • #36
              I remember in 1982 onboard Emer we came across a Russian Okean class spy trawler in the same area in question off Donegal , our skipper decided to get up close to them for a bit of fun and the Russians could be seen filming us with large tri pod cameras , we had been on a Med trip earlier in the year which had included a stop in Almeria so Emers' crew had a fine collection of Spanish and North African attire onboard as souvenirs from the trip , somewhere in Russian Naval Intelligence archives is a film of an Irish Navy ship with a crew dressed like Mexican bandits and Moorish pirates with red Fez hats and long traditional Moroccan shirts waving happily for the Russians' cameras .
              Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                ANZACs that will be 30 odd years old at the stage when they are replaced (and designed even before that), thats like suggesting that we buy some surplus 4th gen fighters for QRA and ignoring the costs of older aircraft. By the time the RAN are done with them I expect they will be fit for the scrappers.
                Best best so is to join the bandwagon and buy some off the shelf. Not many still in the ASW game though. Air Warfare is where the frigate game has gone lately, and any ASW frigates being built come with much greater cost, and capability we won't need.
                Would be more effective to Buy in on the P8 game though. A good MAD scan of the area of activity would give sub commanders a nice headache. €150m each. Tell everyone it's the new government jet and nobody will care.
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                  Interestingly, when the ANZACs were selected, the NZ government at the time were more interested in the L.E. Eithne design (according to wiki). They went with Frigates instead as the only way to ensure their seas remained Nuclear free.
                  Wiki is incorrect. There was no serious interest by the NZ Government in OPV designs at higher levels and within Defence, even with the big push by some for the Castle Class (Peace Activists mainly). There were many ship proposals from all sorts of parties (Including some crazy airship plan) and governments (Denmark, British, Netherlands, South Korea, France, Germany) upshot is the L.E Eithne never made the list of 12 for evaluation. The reality is that Cabinet under then PM's David Lange and Sir Geoff Palmer was determined to push ahead with the ANZAC Class for trans-tasman relationship reasons and the Closer Defence Relationship Treaty, besides the industrial work-share element of the project meant local jobs and reduced foreign exchange costs. Professor Peter Greeners book Timing Is Everything outlines the whole ANZAC Class acquisition saga.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    Best best so is to join the bandwagon and buy some off the shelf. Not many still in the ASW game though. Air Warfare is where the frigate game has gone lately, and any ASW frigates being built come with much greater cost, and capability we won't need.
                    Would be more effective to Buy in on the P8 game though. A good MAD scan of the area of activity would give sub commanders a nice headache. €150m each. Tell everyone it's the new government jet and nobody will care.
                    Not quiet true, while the dedicated ASW only vessels have gone that does not mean the capability is gone. But surface vessels are not the only ASW element in most navies, the sub itself is one of the most effective sub hunters. And before we go off on the P-8 trip it would be worthwhile considering that the C-295's in service with Chile are equipped with MAD and Sonarbouys for ASW.

                    A P-8 or any other aircraft are great at detecting a sub but if you want to track it properly you need a ship. Unless you have multiple P-8's that can maintain station.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by apc View Post
                      Jesus no they'll be looking for at ieast 2 submarines on QRA 24/7/365
                      If we did Defence rather than defence then the priorities would be Naval Service, Air Corp, Army.

                      We are an island nation and although we do share the island with another nation the armed forces of that nation would have to be transported and sustained by air & sea. We rely on sea based commerce, the vast majority of our trade is by sea, we rely on power and communication networks that criss-cross out sea bed.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                        Not quiet true, while the dedicated ASW only vessels have gone that does not mean the capability is gone. But surface vessels are not the only ASW element in most navies, the sub itself is one of the most effective sub hunters. And before we go off on the P-8 trip it would be worthwhile considering that the C-295's in service with Chile are equipped with MAD and Sonarbouys for ASW.

                        A P-8 or any other aircraft are great at detecting a sub but if you want to track it properly you need a ship. Unless you have multiple P-8's that can maintain station.
                        Or your own subs?
                        Costs are comparable to frigates, but require less crew and a Clareman did invent the Submarine.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                          Not quiet true, while the dedicated ASW only vessels have gone that does not mean the capability is gone. But surface vessels are not the only ASW element in most navies, the sub itself is one of the most effective sub hunters. And before we go off on the P-8 trip it would be worthwhile considering that the C-295's in service with Chile are equipped with MAD and Sonarbouys for ASW.

                          A P-8 or any other aircraft are great at detecting a sub but if you want to track it properly you need a ship. Unless you have multiple P-8's that can maintain station.
                          The ASW environment needs a wide range of capability provided by networking of systems and co-ordination between allies. There are various stages to dealing with the submarine including hitting it in it's home port facility, and disrupting it's Command and control information chain. If the submarine gets to an area of operations he is free to sink any surface ship within range. He is constrained by distance probably detecting at 50miles and must come closer if using periscope maybe around 10k. It is in known choke points that adjacent countries need an ASW response using aircraft, fixed network sensors, and ASW vessels with sensors and a ship launched anti-submarine torpedo such as Stingray. Using drones is part of the developing defence systems. As a country we are sitting on three choke zones North, South and East and a big operational area to the West.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                            Or your own subs? Costs are comparable to frigates, but require less crew and a Clareman did invent the Submarine.
                            The RNZN also looked at submarines instead of frigates during the mid 1980's to replace the Leanders and yes comparable on costs, however the time estimated to generate a submariner capability in both personnel and platform was deemed to be at best 12 - 15 years when such a capability was to be built front scratch. A frigate was found to have much greater utility and thus value for money as a whole of government asset, in that they are truly a multi-role platform.
                            Last edited by Anzac; 27 July 2020, 12:20.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                              The RNZN also looked at submarines instead of frigates during the mid 1980's to replace the Leanders and yes comparable on costs, however the time estimated to generate a submariner capability in both personnel and platform was deemed to be at best 12 - 15 years when such a capability was to be built front scratch. A frigate was found to have much greater utility and thus value for money as a whole of government asset, in that they are truly a multi-role platform.
                              Dorcha Lee Col. Rtd has an interesting article on Defence and phrases used to cap spending like" we are a small country" but pointing out that the UN regard us as a medium country. He makes comparisons between us and others on percentage spend of GDP and of course we come in last.
                              Multi-role is more available now as capability can be moved intership once power, space, and connections are provided for. We ,of course. because of position on the global AOP are ideal for submarine use. Not saying it should be done but it would be a collaborative effort requiring embedding with the supplying /building country such as Sweden or Germany.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                                Dorcha Lee Col. Rtd has an interesting article on Defence and phrases used to cap spending like" we are a small country" but pointing out that the UN regard us as a medium country. He makes comparisons between us and others on percentage spend of GDP and of course we come in last.
                                I have always believed that the established smaller wealthy liberal democracies per Ireland, NZ, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Austria et al should team up better, engage more and do more, come together as a group annually, and have a collective influence on world events and outlooks. Each of them are bigger than mere demographic numbers suggest. We have the G-7, G-20, OECD and so forth, but an organisation of those members that collaborates on global defence and security issues, UN work, could be beneficial, influential and stabilising as some larger countries are not as much the force for good as they once were.

                                Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                                Multi-role is more available now as capability can be moved intership once power, space, and connections are provided for. We ,of course. because of position on the global AOP are ideal for submarine use. Not saying it should be done but it would be a collaborative effort requiring embedding with the supplying /building country such as Sweden or Germany.
                                Sweden would be the most straight forward if you were ever to go down that road. But the old defence budget would need to look more like Swedens than it presently is.

                                Of course with subs down the track you would have home team advantage as half of NATO go to play from time to time off your west coast no doubt.
                                Last edited by Anzac; 27 July 2020, 16:05.

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