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Irish trawler 'given order to move on' by Royal Navy frigate

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  • #46
    Joey Murrin must be chewing the inside of his coffin! He'd have put shoe leather to the shiny seat of the relevant Minister

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    • #47
      Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
      Dorcha Lee Col. Rtd has an interesting article on Defence and phrases used to cap spending like" we are a small country" but pointing out that the UN regard us as a medium country. He makes comparisons between us and others on percentage spend of GDP and of course we come in last.
      Multi-role is more available now as capability can be moved intership once power, space, and connections are provided for. We ,of course. because of position on the global AOP are ideal for submarine use. Not saying it should be done but it would be a collaborative effort requiring embedding with the supplying /building country such as Sweden or Germany.
      The article was interesting especially with regard to how we are told to see ourselves, "we are a small poor country". This has been the mantra since the earliest days of the state back in the 1920's. Time has moved on and so has the state, we are a modern medium sized nation, a wealthy nation. The best indication of the change has been the population growth. When we were a poor nation the population was steady or declining but in the last 50yrs we have gone from 3m to almost 5m. That would not have happened if we were still a "poor" country. But that mindset persists with regard to defence, that we cannot afford to fund defence properly.

      Hopefully the review will look beyond just a comparison of how similar sized non-aligned countries structure and fund their defence. It must look at how defence is sold to the citizens, how it is integrated into their view of what is essential for the country. If was announced that the NS was to buy 2 submarines to help protect our state there would be disbelief and outcry. "why do we need U-boats? they are a weapon of aggression!" The population as a whole does not understand what other roles a submarine can play. If we are honest anyone with knowledge of the subject (including politicians) know how much we should be spending of defence, a lot lot more than we do today. Therefore the review must include how to educate the wider population otherwise the results will never be implemented.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Anzac View Post
        I have always believed that the established smaller wealthy liberal democracies per Ireland, NZ, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Austria et al should team up better, engage more and do more, come together as a group annually, and have a collective influence on world events and outlooks. Each of them are bigger than mere demographic numbers suggest. We have the G-7, G-20, OECD and so forth, but an organisation of those members that collaborates on global defence and security issues, UN work, could be beneficial, influential and stabilising as some larger countries are not as much the force for good as they once were.
        Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Island already have an organisation, Nordic Defence Cooperation (NORDEFCO). Three members are also NATO but this co-operation is outside of the NATO structure.

        https://www.nordefco.org/the-basics-about-nordefco

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        • #49
          Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
          Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Island already have an organisation, Nordic Defence Cooperation (NORDEFCO). Three members are also NATO but this co-operation is outside of the NATO structure.

          https://www.nordefco.org/the-basics-about-nordefco
          Is it time for Ireland to dust off it's Viking past?
          'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
          'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
          Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
          He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
          http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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          • #50
            Something along the lines of European countries on the Atlantic seaboard perhaps? Norway, UK, Ireland, France, Spain, Portugal? Only issue is we are the only ones without colonial baggage and protectorates. The others are equipped to deploy far from home to protect their territories overseas.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
              Is it time for Ireland to dust off it's Viking past?
              Dublin: Viking settlement
              Wexford: Viking settlement
              Waterford: Viking settlement
              Cork: Viking settlement
              Limerick: Viking settlement

              And we should not forget the Normans, Norsemen who went on holiday to France but stayed a bit longer.

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              • #52
                Any visit to scandanavia and you soon realise either the Irish did a lot of breeding there, or the vikings did a lot of breeding here. The pale skin freckle face with the ginger hair is a very nordic trait, yet is considered picture postcard irish here.
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                  Something along the lines of European countries on the Atlantic seaboard perhaps? Norway, UK, Ireland, France, Spain, Portugal? Only issue is we are the only ones without colonial baggage and protectorates. The others are equipped to deploy far from home to protect their territories overseas.
                  Apart from UK and France the others have today little in the way of overseas territories. A bigger issue would be that all are NATO members and a group in which we were the only non-NATO member might not function as good for us. Better also to have a group with some other non-NATO countries. For naval issues some a grouping of Ireland, NZ, Portugal, Norway and Denmark would be interesting. All countries which are not too different in size of populations and economies. All with ocean territories and challenges.

                  We just need to remind the Portuguese of there Celtic history. Recent DNA mapping has shown we share a lot with the Spanish and Portuguese, Plus we do seem to bring a lot of time in the region, it is like a home away from home.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    Something along the lines of European countries on the Atlantic seaboard perhaps? Norway, UK, Ireland, France, Spain, Portugal? Only issue is we are the only ones without colonial baggage and protectorates. The others are equipped to deploy far from home to protect their territories overseas.
                    A global perspective rather than a regional one was what I was thinking of.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Anzac View Post
                      I have always believed that the established smaller wealthy liberal democracies per Ireland, NZ, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Austria et al should team up better, engage more and do more, come together as a group annually, and have a collective influence on world events and outlooks. Each of them are bigger than mere demographic numbers suggest. We have the G-7, G-20, OECD and so forth, but an organisation of those members that collaborates on global defence and security issues, UN work, could be beneficial, influential and stabilising as some larger countries are not as much the force for good as they once were.

                      Sweden would be the most straight forward if you were ever to go down that road. But the old defence budget would need to look more like Swedens than it presently is.

                      Of course with subs down the track you would have home team advantage as half of NATO go to play from time to time off your west coast no doubt.
                      Very much depends on what we are teaming up for

                      We engage both bilaterally and multilaterally.

                      Successive Irish Governments very much a multinational approach and world view.

                      However it depends on what the issue is as to who we team up with.




                      Of course the Irish parish pump very much comes first. Especially where Fianna Fáil is involved. For example, the Defence Forces having a permanent presence in Co.Cork to provide flood relief could be much more important to some compared to the capability of the Defence Forces nationwide to defend against armed aggression.

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                      • #56
                        The warship was given as the HMS Lancaster which has been doing work-up exercises over the past few months after a more than 2 year refit. It might well have been she was doing some ASW practice. The reported area from what we know would be outside our territorial waters but inside our EEZ.

                        Naturally no navy would ever divulge when and where their submarines operate but they should be able to detect and avoid surface vessels when on operations. However when it comes to exercises could there not be more information and exchange. For example when a submarine is doing a "Perisher" exercise this for the potential captains an exercise to simulate as close as possible war time conditions. As such it can be easy for them to focus on the exercise and not so much on the civilian vessels in the area. This has led to several incident over the years.

                        It is true that each day the RN do issue SUBFACT etc to warn where they will be exercising but this does not eliminate the potential for something to go wrong. Like any military exercise we would like to keep civilians out of the area. Could we not require that any nations wishing to perform naval exercises within the boundary of our EEZ that they first have to inform us well in advance that they wish to hold such an exercise? That we withhold the right to deny the request if we believe it is disrupting commercial activities, for example if they are continuously exercising in an area and at a time when that area would have a lot of commercial activity. Naturally then we would be able to declare that the effected area is restricted for that time period. It would also mean we would have to police the area.

                        Just a thought!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          It would be interesting to have the Swedes send one of their Gotland class subs to play with the NS.
                          How far could they sneak into Cork harbour?
                          How easily could they place dummy mines at the entrance?
                          How close could they get to one of our vessels before surfacing?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            old time tale begins I remember on one passage through English Channel observing a RN Type 21 on our to the north horizon heading west, it's lynx zipping about nearby. Through binoculars I could also make out a Type 22 Broadsword type nearby heading south, It's lynx on deck, rotors turning. The skipper called me to the other side of the bridge and said "SUB"! After much swapping of binoculars, I eventually spotted a periscope, about 100m away, using our noisy engines and commercial wake to mask their acoustic location, while keeping a close eye on the 2 ships we presumed were looking for it. We considered hailing them on VHF to report sub activity, but hey, its their game.old time tale ends

                            This would have been about 20 NM south of the Dorset Coast, in a very congested shipping lane, near a number of large British and French ports. It is presumed they carry out their games with due regard for the safety of other vessels.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              The warship was given as the HMS Lancaster which has been doing work-up exercises over the past few months after a more than 2 year refit. It might well have been she was doing some ASW practice. The reported area from what we know would be outside our territorial waters but inside our EEZ.

                              Naturally no navy would ever divulge when and where their submarines operate but they should be able to detect and avoid surface vessels when on operations. However when it comes to exercises could there not be more information and exchange. For example when a submarine is doing a "Perisher" exercise this for the potential captains an exercise to simulate as close as possible war time conditions. As such it can be easy for them to focus on the exercise and not so much on the civilian vessels in the area. This has led to several incident over the years.

                              It is true that each day the RN do issue SUBFACT etc to warn where they will be exercising but this does not eliminate the potential for something to go wrong. Like any military exercise we would like to keep civilians out of the area. Could we not require that any nations wishing to perform naval exercises within the boundary of our EEZ that they first have to inform us well in advance that they wish to hold such an exercise? That we withhold the right to deny the request if we believe it is disrupting commercial activities, for example if they are continuously exercising in an area and at a time when that area would have a lot of commercial activity. Naturally then we would be able to declare that the effected area is restricted for that time period. It would also mean we would have to police the area.

                              Just a thought!
                              We have no legal right to do so, not so RN have any legal right to order an Irish trawler to leave the area in question.

                              The whole reason for SUBFACTS and more than likely the reason for HMS Lancaster being in the area is to prevent accidents such as a sub being caught in fishing nets and the potential for the FV’s sinking. Vessels are informed of exercises for their own safety already.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                                It would be interesting to have the Swedes send one of their Gotland class subs to play with the NS.
                                How far could they sneak into Cork harbour?
                                How easily could they place dummy mines at the entrance?
                                How close could they get to one of our vessels before surfacing?
                                I think we all know the answer to that, but DOD would happily declare it as something not important.

                                Comment

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