Originally posted by ancientmariner
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Irish trawler 'given order to move on' by Royal Navy frigate
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The Type-23 will be very old when they finally leave RN service.
Here was the planned out of service dates as given in 2016 but some may slip due to the delay in the Type-31.
https://www.parliament.uk/business/p...6-02-23/28004/
Here is an overview of the status of the Type-23 refits:
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/pro...e-23-frigates/
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Another bump on the road is powerplant. The RR Spey Gas turbine is very troublesome, but is also maintenance friendly,(compared to other similar gas turbines where the RN has taken to swapping engines between ships to keep one operational. When deployed, the Type 42s usually ran with a spare turbine from one of the old carriers in a crate).
We have no experience of operating gas turbine propulsion, and all that comes with it, and it would be a backward step in terms of fuel efficiency.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Originally posted by Auldsod View PostI think most of us are agreed then so. Age of the vessels aside, this would only have been possible if we were already a small 'frigate navy'.
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Originally posted by Sparky42 View PostI don't see how you think it would be "low" in terms of Defence spending, even without the manpower issue there are huge structural issues that would have to be dealt with, all for 2 hulls that are likely to be the older hulls with a very limited lifespan left within them, which would be even shorter by the time the infrastructure deficits could be dealt with.
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I think the only reason the 4.5 exists is to be uniquely british. They did try to make it 155mm same as the Army SPG, but that plan died in cutbacks. T26 is getting a 5 inch and the T31e will probably have a 57mm Mk110.
With that in mind we should do like NZ did and buy in to someone else's new ASW ship programme. Would be nice if the Germans could lend us a F123 now and again, just for test drive. €303m each. 223 crew.
We are where we are as the phrase goes. Decades of neglect mean we find ourself at the stage where any attempt to provide even the basic level of detection or deterrent will cost us big, because we aren't replacing existing infrastructure.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Do we need an ASW capability?
The answer for a lot of us would be yes, and that will likely become stronger as we invest more in offshore wind energy etc. Is it currently on the DoD radar? No
So the hope will be that the Commission for Defence will identify the need and what is required to meet that need. What equipment and when it would be sourced would then have to be defined.
If we take a look at the Finnish Squadron 2020; it started back in 2008, it was officially launch as a project in 2015 and the 4 ships were ordered in 2019. The first vessel is due to be completed in 2022, with one ship a year until 2025. It is expected that these will then reach full operational capability in 2028. That is 20 years after the first planning was done.
If we transpose that to us the Commission will start in 2021 and so even if an ASW corvette/frigate need was identified this will not be clear until 2022 at the earliest. This could be equated to the 2015 project launch of the Finns. Taking the same timescales then the first ship would be ready in 2032! Of course that could be reduced by buying a "off the shelf" design with slight modification where necessary. There are plenty of options; the EPC, the Finnish Pohjanmaa-class, the Turkish Ada-class to name just a few.
But we need the time and we need to build up our ASW capability. Do we have ASW sonar operators? This is something we have all but lost and need to get back. All modern ASW corvettes and frigates rely on their organic helicopter to a large extent, do we have this? So something else we have to build up.
IMHO it would mean seconding people to other navies and air forces to gain experience before we put front-line ASW vessels into service. It could be supported by introducing some limited ASW capability to the P60 class. But the key will be having a long term plan and ensuring it is properly resourced.
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Originally posted by na grohmiti View PostAnother bump on the road is powerplant. The RR Spey Gas turbine is very troublesome, but is also maintenance friendly,(compared to other similar gas turbines where the RN has taken to swapping engines between ships to keep one operational. When deployed, the Type 42s usually ran with a spare turbine from one of the old carriers in a crate).
We have no experience of operating gas turbine propulsion, and all that comes with it, and it would be a backward step in terms of fuel efficiency.
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Decades of neglect mean we find ourself at the stage where any attempt to provide even the basic level of detection or deterrent will cost us big, because we aren't replacing existing infrastructure.
By our terms of experience we keep our ships beyond 35 years and if something can be taken up with a refitting package and a ship load of ship type stores and full training at a discounted price!! Why not.
The best option would to be to take an option in a new build type and embed people with the relevant partners from the outset so and rotate an entire crew with those partners until the ship is built and that way have a crew available on commission.
Price of build as its a new build with partners while large wouldn't be excessive and like most new types weapons fit depends on the budget of the end user.
But then again you have to ensure your people are not going out the door within 12 months of completion so pay issues etc must be sorted.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostThe best option would to be to take an option in a new build type and embed people with the relevant partners from the outset so and rotate an entire crew with those partners until the ship is built and that way have a crew available on commission.
Price of build as its a new build with partners while large wouldn't be excessive and like most new types weapons fit depends on the budget of the end user.
But then again you have to ensure your people are not going out the door within 12 months of completion so pay issues etc must be sorted.
So given that from signing a contract to the vessel being completed it will be normally 4 years it could be part of the contract to have seconded crew(s) embedded on their vessel(s). This is similar to what the RAF did when they lost their Nimrods.
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Originally posted by na grohmiti View PostThere are rumours that the RN plans to sell some Type 23 FFGs to Greece.
The oldest was Comissioned in 1991, the newest in 2002. Cost £130m each when new. There recent refits saw updated Sonar, 3d Radar, etc
They were planning to start decommissioning in 2023.
Would there be any advantage to the Irish Naval service getting 2, if offered at a knockdown bargain price?
Crew of 185 (accom for 205) would to me be the main hurdle.
https://www.navalanalyses.com/2019/0...f-current.html
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Originally posted by EUFighter View PostType-42 used Tyne and Qlympus engines not Speys. This combination was also used on the Type-21 and Type-22 frigates while the Invincible class had four Olympus engines. The carriers, the Type-42 and Type-22 all went to the breakers yard at roughly the same time period.For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
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Most current gas turbine installations are industrial gas turbine derivatives such as the LM 2500 and Solar Centaur,Mars and Taurus engines. Navies have been getting away from modified aero engines because they couldn't meet the demand for long service life, that industrial engines deliver and the fuel economy of modern units if much better than aero-derivatives. I worked on RR Avons and Orenda J-47s on oil rigs and their owners couldnt have cared less how much they burned and they ran on either natural gas, kerosene or diesel,depending on what was available. A lot of Solar units went onto high speed ferries used in various cities like Hong Kong. Others operate as the lifting engine for hovercrafts.
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