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Time to get rid of sexist rank titles?

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  • Time to get rid of sexist rank titles?

    Canada is leading the way in (unpopular to some) ways to promote inclusiveness in its Naval sector. It wishes to remove the old titles of Seaman, whether Leading, ordinary or able. Replacing them with something more relevant in a 21st century navy made up of men and women.

    The Royal Canadian Navy's deputy commander has responded to a series of online posts criticizing the military's plan to drop the term "seaman" by warning that there is no place in the force for sailors who subscribe to "hateful, misogynistic and racist" beliefs.


    Navies around the world have described their junior sailors as 'seamen' for decades
    Lee Berthiaume · The Canadian Press · Posted: Jul 26, 2020 5:24 PM ET | Last Updated: July 26

    Junior sailors have been referred to as 'seamen' for decades, but in Canada, the term is set to be replaced in an effort to diversify the military's ranks. (Chap Hipolito/The Canadian Press)
    The Royal Canadian Navy's deputy commander has responded to a series of online posts criticizing the military's plan to drop the term "seaman" by warning that there is no place in the force for sailors who subscribe to "hateful, misogynistic and racist" beliefs.

    Rear Admiral Chris Sutherland issued the admonition in a Facebook post over the weekend as sailors and members of the public are being asked to vote on a new title for the navy's most junior members by replacing "seaman" with a more gender-neutral term.

    "To those of you currently serving with these beliefs, I would like to emphatically state you have no place in our navy," Sutherland said. "If you cannot live by or support the values of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, then you cannot defend them."

    Navies around the world have described their junior sailors as "seamen" for decades if not centuries, with the Royal Canadian Navy using "ordinary seaman," "able seaman," "leading seaman" and "master seaman."

    But those terms are being replaced in Canada as the navy — which is short hundreds of sailors — charts new waters to become more diverse and inclusive. Navy officers have said the move is also designed to ensure junior members feel safe and proud of their ranks and jobs.

    Members of the navy as well as the public at large have until Friday to vote online on two alternatives, with both variants substituting "sailor" in place of "seaman" in different ways.

    One simply replaces "seaman" with "sailor" in the existing ranks. The other would do away with adjectives such as "able" and "leading" in favour of labels such as "sailor first class" and "sailor second class." There is also an option to suggest alternative terms.

    Move seen as overdue — and unwarranted
    But while the move has been applauded by some as long overdue, there has also been varying degrees of criticism online as some have blasted what they see as an overabundance of political correctness and others decrying a loss of tradition.

    Some of those posts appear to have crossed a line for navy commanders.

    Sutherland apologized for not speaking up sooner, saying he "needed a minute to come to terms with some of the comments that have been posted," before targeting not only active-duty sailors but anyone who has made "hateful, misogynistic and racists comments."

    "I am shocked that you think that your comments would be acceptable, and that you are not able to recognize that those you are disparaging are the very people dedicating their lives to afford you the freedom to comment," he said without expanding on the offending posts.

    "These comments serve as a reminder of our need to call out cowardly attacks such as these, and remind us also that we should take every opportunity to show support for minority and marginalized groups."

    He went on to invite any sailor who wanted to know why the initiative is a priority for the navy — "and would like to engage in constructive discussion on the topic" — to contact him directly.

    The move to drop "seaman" comes amid a broader push by the military to become more reflective of Canadian society, which includes trying to recruit more women, visible minorities and members of the LGBTQ community while cracking down on hateful conduct.

    At the same time, navy officials have suggested the use of "seaman" has been a potential barrier for recruitment at a time when the navy is short about 850 sailors. Officers have said they can manage the shortfall at the moment, but are worried about the longer-term implications.
    Is there any other appointments within the defence forces that retain gendered titles? I know the Air Corps still has Airman.
    A driver has always been a driver, and the radio operator in my memory was never the radio man. Private/Gunner/Trooper are all fairly universal. I do remember Signaller used to be signalman, and for a time signalwoman before the current term.
    I also find use of the term seaman can bring out the usual immature jokes amongst some.
    Merchant service tend to use the term "deckhand" which is gender neutral but open to mutation. The term "Rating" or "Rate" is also in use.
    The Term "Ban-Gharda" was dropped for similar reasons in the early 90s. There was a belief in the force, and the public that a female garda, carrying a different title (as well as a separate numbering system) were not "proper" gardai.
    Should we follow the Canadian path?
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

  • #2
    they are reviving the ghost of the dual-language campaign in the Canadian Armed Forces,which caused a lot of grief.......personally, I dont care what you use as long as the title reflects the duty involved and is not some "woke" bullshit.

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    • #3
      If it considered a barrier to recruitment, then I'm all for it. If it's only for cute press releases (remember when the now MEP, former Rose of Tralee joined the RDF?) then skip it.
      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • #4
        I always believed that a "seaman " was a job description and not a gender statement .
        Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Laners View Post
          I always believed that a "seaman " was a job description and not a gender statement .
          If this was the case, the plural would be seamans, not seamen.
          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
            If this was the case, the plural would be seamans, not seamen.
            And what will I do with my SEAMANSHIP book and how will I describe someone who is a good seaman. Leave the men with seaman and create a new title of Seamiss for females. I would not like to rename a Manhole. Someone named a female ship's Captain as a Sea Mistress. The general tendency is to use the term Ordinary Rate, Able Rate and Leading rate.

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            • #7
              Could it be that the French Canadians already have a gender neutral name?

              But the so do we "Mairnéalach"

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              • #8
                Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                And what will I do with my SEAMANSHIP book and how will I describe someone who is a good seaman. Leave the men with seaman and create a new title of Seamiss for females. I would not like to rename a Manhole. Someone named a female ship's Captain as a Sea Mistress. The general tendency is to use the term Ordinary Rate, Able Rate and Leading rate.
                Manholes have been inspection chambers and inspection covers for quite some time. Seamiss presumes marital status. Your seamanship book was replaced with books on Navigation, Pilotage, Cargo handling, Ropework, Nautical knowledge and other specialised areas. We have moved on from Rum, Sodomy and the Lash. Seafarer and Seafaring is a non gender specific term for the same trade perhaps.
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                  Could it be that the French Canadians already have a gender neutral name?

                  But the so do we "Mairnéalach"
                  Don't all french nouns have gender?
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                  • #10
                    If it's a case of stopping the "childish" jokes then I would go for Crewman, and before anyone points out that has "man" in it, so does Human and Woman.

                    Otherwise it's Mariner which sounds more "military" then seafarer.
                    It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                    It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                    It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                    It was the year everything changed.

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                    • #11
                      Are they also outdated terms in modern society?
                      Human is not the same as crewman for the same reason the plural of seaman is seamen.
                      The term "Woman" comes from ancient english, where wiffmann (female human, wermann being male human) evolved to wimman, and eventually the current spelling. Mann represented not just male but was gender neutral the same as person or someone, but following the Norman Conquest faded out of use is this manner, instead to just represent Male Human.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        How about "deckhand " it's gender neutral , just need to come up with something to replace ships steward .
                        Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                          Don't all french nouns have gender?
                          They do , but it's complicated , I just checked with herself who is fluent , when I started to hear the words masculine and feminine mentioned I knew it wasn't going to be a short answer .
                          Last edited by Laners; 27 July 2020, 20:56.
                          Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            So will the term "she" when referring to a ship be replaced with "it"
                            Last edited by Laners; 27 July 2020, 23:19.
                            Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              They say subs are male.
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                              Comment

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