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  • Co-operation with Marine Nationale

    With the cliffhanger of Brexit finally looming over the horizon is it not time to expand and deepen our co-operation with the Marine Nationale? Although our EEZs are separated by a thin UK slice the proximity of the French and Irish will mean that close co-operation not just on fishery protect but on anti-drug and counter terrorism will remain essential.

    While joint exercises are good as is co-operation can we go further? Can we take a current issue of the NS and turn it into an opportunity? The recruitment/retention crisis! It is likely that the NS will soon be down to 5 operations vessels and if and when it ever gets the EPV/MPV this would only add to the crewing problems. Could we go further than joint exercises and do sharing of assets?

    The French currently use the A-69 (D’Estienne d’Orves-class) as OPVs having removed much of the equipment for ASW and ASuW. These vessels are old as the hills with the first of the class entering service in 1976, the youngest of the current vessels entering service in 1981! They are planning to replace these and the much smaller OPV54 Flament class with new vessels starting in 2025. Going on what the budget is expected to be something of the capability of the P60 is likely, therefore rather than having vessels tied up due to lack of crew could we not offer sharing of the P60s?

    It could be that command is retained by a Irish captain but he has French officers under his command along with some more French crew? And that the P60s and A69s operate as a joint force patrolling the Atlantic EEZs of our two nations. Asset sharing is nothing new in military field especially the air domain where NATO has had shared E3 and C17 assets and the EU will now begin with its A330 MRTT fleet. Could we bring this to the marine environment?

  • #2
    Interesting concept. The history of military cooperation with France goes back to the Wild Geese and 1798, so that'll appeal to the "Anybody but The Brits ans USA" crowd, and there is something to be gained by both sides. Ireland could also offer useful bases for French air assets.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
      Interesting concept. The history of military cooperation with France goes back to the Wild Geese and 1798, so that'll appeal to the "Anybody but The Brits ans USA" crowd, and there is something to be gained by both sides. Ireland could also offer useful bases for French air assets.
      Not really cooperation rather an opportunity for France to wield power and weaken Britian's ability to wage war against France. None of it ended up winning medals. I.m all for cooperation, each contributor operating their own platforms. Some countries are very reluctant to converse outside of their own languages and traditions. There is a common language in Airborne operations both Civil and Military, not sure about waterborne operations and a common language. We are capable of better but are kept hungry, poorly shod in a military sense, and housed in past times by frugal stop/go budgeting. The French will do it so close up the purse lads.
      Last edited by ancientmariner; 13 August 2020, 11:48.

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      • #4
        The difficulty of course being that French Naval OPVs also guard the approaches to the French naval bases at Lorient, where its submarine fleet is based, including the Nuclear ones. Imagine the outrage if it was known that Irish Naval vessels were supporting the French Nuclear first strike capability?
        Keep in mind that an Irish MEP was crew aboard the Rainbow warrior when it was sunk by French special forces in Auckland Harbour in 1985, as Greenpeace attempted to prevent Nuclear testing in the Pacific. A Greenpeace Photographer died as a result of this explosion, which the NZ PM at the time called "an act of State Sponsored Terrorism", of which there are still many unanswered questions as to the level of French Government involvement and support.
        It was this event that made NZ decide it needed ANZAC Frigates to protect its waters, and not OPVs.
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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        • #5
          I wasn’t aware of any Irish connection to the Rainbow Warrior. That could make a difference (although certain political parties keep saying 1985 was too long ago to worry about!)
          'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
          'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
          Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
          He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
          http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
            I wasn’t aware of any Irish connection to the Rainbow Warrior. That could make a difference (although certain political parties keep saying 1985 was too long ago to worry about!)
            She was from the extreme fringe of educated sports person , an activist, anti nuclear, and was some years on Rainbow warrior, including trying to board a russian warship on a hauling anchor chain. She was there at the attack in NZ. Was an MEP and a Green Senator. The pedigree is disruptive with goals focused but not national wanting to save the Planet by unilateral actions in her home country.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
              The difficulty of course being that French Naval OPVs also guard the approaches to the French naval bases at Lorient, where its submarine fleet is based, including the Nuclear ones. Imagine the outrage if it was known that Irish Naval vessels were supporting the French Nuclear first strike capability?
              Keep in mind that an Irish MEP was crew aboard the Rainbow warrior when it was sunk by French special forces in Auckland Harbour in 1985, as Greenpeace attempted to prevent Nuclear testing in the Pacific. A Greenpeace Photographer died as a result of this explosion, which the NZ PM at the time called "an act of State Sponsored Terrorism", of which there are still many unanswered questions as to the level of French Government involvement and support.
              It was this event that made NZ decide it needed ANZAC Frigates to protect its waters, and not OPVs.
              The French SSBN fleet is located at L'ĂŽle Longue which is just across the bay from Brest. It is their holy of holys, there is more change of the entire crew of an Irish OPV sleeping with the French presidents wife than their is of an Irish OPV getting anywhere near one of their nuclear missile boats! In any case they are more interested about what might be underwater trying to catch Le Triomphant or her sisters and that is left to the ASW frigates based in Brest. It may be that when it enters service the EPF might take over some of this but it is nt usually expected from the OPV's.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
                I wasn’t aware of any Irish connection to the Rainbow Warrior. That could make a difference (although certain political parties keep saying 1985 was too long ago to worry about!)
                I think the French owe us on that one!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  Not really cooperation rather an opportunity for France to wield power and weaken Britian's ability to wage war against France. None of it ended up winning medals. I.m all for cooperation, each contributor operating their own platforms. Some countries are very reluctant to converse outside of their own languages and traditions. There is a common language in Airborne operations both Civil and Military, not sure about waterborne operations and a common language. We are capable of better but are kept hungry, poorly shod in a military sense, and housed in past times by frugal stop/go budgeting. The French will do it so close up the purse lads.
                  As for language, English is the working language for all NATO military's so at least at NCO & officer level communications are not much of a problem. True the French do prefer if one at least tries to speak their language so it is a good excuse to dust off the French learnt for Leaving Cert.......even if you weren't great and most has been forgotten.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Leaving Cert French won't get you very far in France , and what will the French say when served Le Petit Dejeuner Irlandais .
                    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Laners View Post
                      Leaving Cert French won't get you very far in France , and what will the French say when served Le Petit Dejeuner Irlandais .
                      While L/C French won't get you far, the mere fact you tried will.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                        While L/C French won't get you far, the mere fact you tried will.
                        And a French giggle .
                        Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Laners View Post
                          And a French giggle .
                          Always remembering that historically the French Navy were uncertain of their prowess , leadership and viability. They still have brassbound patriotic admonitions at action positions aboard their ships. In 1798 they executed many of their lineage commanders setting themselves up for a drubbing in 1805.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                            While L/C French won't get you far, the mere fact you tried will.
                            You might get more than a giggle if you were to pronounce "mere" with a slight d sound towards the end of it .
                            Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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                            • #15
                              Why not? given the frequency of French formal visits here, the DF might as well, especially if they put more boots on the ground in Mali, in an offensive mode.

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