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  • Hungarian Moderisation

    After ordering Leopoard 2 tanks and H145 helicopters last year Hungary continues its buying this week:

    $1billion on NASAMS air defence system
    https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...-air-defenses/

    €2billion on Lynx IFVs
    https://euro-sd.com/2020/08/news/186...x-for-hungary/

  • #2
    Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
    After ordering Leopoard 2 tanks and H145 helicopters last year Hungary continues its buying this week:

    $1billion on NASAMS air defence system
    https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...-air-defenses/

    €2billion on Lynx IFVs
    https://euro-sd.com/2020/08/news/186...x-for-hungary/
    A country with 1.8 times our population. Our GDP is approx 2,48 times theirs, and our GNI* is approx 130% of their GDP.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Herald View Post
      A country with 1.8 times our population. Our GDP is approx 2,48 times theirs, and our GNI* is approx 130% of their GDP.
      And are NATO members

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DeV View Post
        And are NATO members
        And being occupied / opressed by a foreign power (who would come back given half a chance) is something the population knows about from first hand experience, not a distant folk memory.

        They know the importance of a good Defence policy, they don't need to be educated about it.
        'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
        'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
        Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
        He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
        http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Flamingo View Post
          And being occupied / opressed by a foreign power (who would come back given half a chance) is something the population knows about from first hand experience, not a distant folk memory.

          They know the importance of a good Defence policy, they don't need to be educated about it.
          Before we educate the people, our politicians need to be educated.
          However the point here the argument against higher defence spending has always been in the first case: "we're poor, we can't afford more". And no matter which matrix you look at this is no longer the case.

          Comment


          • #6
            Educate the electorate and they will elect the right people - Politicians will always deliver whats popular with the voters?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Orion View Post
              Educate the electorate and they will elect the right people - Politicians will always deliver whats popular with the voters?
              But in Ireland that is the state of the Roads, the State of the HSE, too much Tax etc etc

              Look at the major debate over retirement ages before the election, we have choices:
              - increase pension age
              - dramatically reduce pensions
              - combination of both

              Waiting for the Greens to suggest a time machine to go back 20 years and increase the birth rate.

              Yes we need to educate but most of the threats aren’t visible.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DeV View Post
                But in Ireland that is the state of the Roads, the State of the HSE, too much Tax etc etc

                Look at the major debate over retirement ages before the election, we have choices:
                - increase pension age
                - dramatically reduce pensions
                - combination of both

                Waiting for the Greens to suggest a time machine to go back 20 years and increase the birth rate.

                Yes we need to educate but most of the threats aren’t visible.
                Somebody will always come up with an excuse, but other countries have infrastructure such as roads which they need to repair, other countries have health care systems which could do with more money, other countries complain about tax (Ireland is not the highest!!!)

                And as for the demographics Ireland has 3rd highest fertility rate in the EU at 1.77, well above the EU average of 1.56 and miles ahead of the Hungarian rate of 1.54. That means by 2040 the population of Ireland will rise by +16.6% while that of Hungary will fall by -3.9%. But that is not as bad as Lithuania where the population will fall by -27.1%. And the growth of the Irish population is project to continue to increase that by 2080 it will be +34.4% compared with today.

                The "scaremongering" in our politics needs to be called out and ended especially when today we have so much access to the data.
                Last edited by EUFighter; 22 August 2020, 14:52.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                  Somebody will always come up with an excuse, but other countries have infrastructure such as roads which they need to repair, other countries have health care systems which could do with more money, other countries complain about tax (Ireland is not the highest!!!)

                  And as for the demographics Ireland has 3rd highest fertility rate in the EU at 1.77, well above the EU average of 1.56 and miles ahead of the Hungarian rate of 1.54. That means by 2040 the population of Ireland will rise by +16.6% while that of Hungary will fall by -3.9%. But that is not as bad as Lithuania where the population will fall by -27.1%. And the growth of the Irish population is project to continue to increase that by 2080 it will be +34.4% compared with today.

                  The "scaremongering" in our politics needs to be called out and ended especially when today we have so much access to the data.
                  The rest of the counties of Europe have experienced real war or have a population who do not live in a fairy world believing everybody loves them "cos we never invaded anyone "
                  Last edited by sofa; 22 August 2020, 21:59.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by sofa View Post
                    The rest of the counties of Europe have experienced real war or have a population who do not live in a fairy world believing everybody loves them "cos we never invaded anyone "
                    I can and do completely agree with the second half of your statement, the first part not so.

                    In WWII Sweden, Switzerland and Portugal were in the same boat as us, and even if we were not bombed like our neighbour we did suffer hardships like they did. And for the majority of those other countries they too have not experienced war on their soil for the past 75 years.
                    As for WWI we were fully part of it, 130,000+ of the Irish Volunteers followed John Redmond's appeal and went to France to fight.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                      I can and do completely agree with the second half of your statement, the first part not so.

                      In WWII Sweden, Switzerland and Portugal were in the same boat as us, and even if we were not bombed like our neighbour we did suffer hardships like they did. And for the majority of those other countries they too have not experienced war on their soil for the past 75 years.
                      As for WWI we were fully part of it, 130,000+ of the Irish Volunteers followed John Redmond's appeal and went to France to fight.
                      Switzerland etc are realists. Our WW1 collective memory was lost very quickly because the nationalist narrative was a very simplistic one, Irish V The English, and the likes of the people in the Liberties in Dublin who were hit badly by the Gallipoli campaign kept their head down. The fact the country during WW2 was supplied by Irishmen in Irish ships travelling in British protected convoys is also lost or the fact some lost their lives by enemy action doing so.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                        I can and do completely agree with the second half of your statement, the first part not so.

                        In WWII Sweden, Switzerland and Portugal were in the same boat as us, and even if we were not bombed like our neighbour we did suffer hardships like they did. And for the majority of those other countries they too have not experienced war on their soil for the past 75 years.
                        As for WWI we were fully part of it, 130,000+ of the Irish Volunteers followed John Redmond's appeal and went to France to fight.
                        At the end of the day people do not believe that there is any external threat to Ireland and for the maintenance of internal order, our security apparatus is satisfactory. Defence spending in the likes of Portugal is an issue with people believing it a luxury they do not need either. Also, people accept that our bigger neighbours will look after us - however ill advise that may be

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Connaught Ranger View Post
                          At the end of the day people do not believe that there is any external threat to Ireland and for the maintenance of internal order, our security apparatus is satisfactory. Defence spending in the likes of Portugal is an issue with people believing it a luxury they do not need either. Also, people accept that our bigger neighbours will look after us - however ill advise that may be
                          The people need to be educated as to the reality of the current political situation.
                          Post hard brexit, when the UK economy tanks, who will protect us then? Russian submarines cutting the communications link to the US, and with it access to the Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/Netflix/itunes pacifiers that feed us with videos of kittens...What will we do to get through our day?
                          Following economic collapse in the UK, expect all the Irish in the UK to return, some as economic Refugees. Where will they go? Who will repatriate them?
                          The US is on the edge too. 45 may not go quietly, and his white supremacist fans all have guns, and Trump lost the Joint Chiefs when he did his walk to church a few weeks back.They won't have time to watch Europe's back door.
                          It may not be full on civil war, but they will need to deal with domestic terrorists for a while, at the same time trying to regain the lost ground militarily in the Middle East, Asia and Central america.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by The Connaught Ranger View Post
                            At the end of the day people do not believe that there is any external threat to Ireland and for the maintenance of internal order, our security apparatus is satisfactory. Defence spending in the likes of Portugal is an issue with people believing it a luxury they do not need either. Also, people accept that our bigger neighbours will look after us - however ill advise that may be
                            Defence is like insurance, no one likes paying it and many try to avoid it if they can. But when something happens those same people expect to be covered. The Irish people have been led to believe in fairy tales, of Irish neutrality, of how there is no threat to our way of life, etc. The lack of knowledge is not just limited to the ordinary Joe but to those who hold the reigns of power. All need to be educated on the topics and reality of defence.

                            There is to be a Commission on Defence, which we all welcome, IMHO this has in part not come about as a desire to improve the defence of our nation but rather due to pressure from outside. Pressure from our partners in Europe and pressure from investors in our economy, all seeing that a lack of investment in defence leaves them paying the price or vulnerable. Our economy is not a isolated island economy but one linked to the entire world and the peace of that world has to be defended.

                            At the end of the '80s as the USSR and Warsaw Pact imploded I too questioned the need for armies etc. But the headlong rush to turn swords in plowshares has turned out to have been the after glow of the ending of the Cold War. The world is not a peaceful place, many of the underling tensions had been masked by the power plays of the Cold War and now we have conflicts more than ever. To think that a war in Syria, Libya, Afghanistan etc does not have an impact on us is to ignore the reality of today. The influx of millions of refugees into the EU was not because those people wanted to leave their homes, it was due to war. And those who oppose military spending here are always the first to call for something to be done.

                            No one wants war, but the reality of our world is different. We all see how men gain power and then become obsessed with keeping it, look at Putin, Erdo?an & co. They play power games to stay in power by using the age old trick of the "enemy outside the gate". Europe has been mostly at peace for the past 75 years, and that has been due to NATO and the EU. We were surrounded by NATO, protected by their military's power, and as we were seen as poor this was accepted. But that is no longer the case and others see us as a rich country and expect us to pay a share of our shared security.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              Defence is like insurance, no one likes paying it and many try to avoid it if they can. But when something happens those same people expect to be covered. The Irish people have been led to believe in fairy tales, of Irish neutrality, of how there is no threat to our way of life, etc. The lack of knowledge is not just limited to the ordinary Joe but to those who hold the reigns of power. All need to be educated on the topics and reality of defence.

                              There is to be a Commission on Defence, which we all welcome, IMHO this has in part not come about as a desire to improve the defence of our nation but rather due to pressure from outside. Pressure from our partners in Europe and pressure from investors in our economy, all seeing that a lack of investment in defence leaves them paying the price or vulnerable. Our economy is not a isolated island economy but one linked to the entire world and the peace of that world has to be defended.

                              At the end of the '80s as the USSR and Warsaw Pact imploded I too questioned the need for armies etc. But the headlong rush to turn swords in plowshares has turned out to have been the after glow of the ending of the Cold War. The world is not a peaceful place, many of the underling tensions had been masked by the power plays of the Cold War and now we have conflicts more than ever. To think that a war in Syria, Libya, Afghanistan etc does not have an impact on us is to ignore the reality of today. The influx of millions of refugees into the EU was not because those people wanted to leave their homes, it was due to war. And those who oppose military spending here are always the first to call for something to be done.

                              No one wants war, but the reality of our world is different. We all see how men gain power and then become obsessed with keeping it, look at Putin, Erdo?an & co. They play power games to stay in power by using the age old trick of the "enemy outside the gate". Europe has been mostly at peace for the past 75 years, and that has been due to NATO and the EU. We were surrounded by NATO, protected by their military's power, and as we were seen as poor this was accepted. But that is no longer the case and others see us as a rich country and expect us to pay a share of our shared security.
                              I have always thought that former COS Lt. Gen. Gerry McMahon's take on this was the best. As a neutral county we have an obligation to mount a credible defence of our sovereignty. Finland an Austria being the most comparably sized neutral states I thought would be a good bench mark - yes Finland is much larger, but its population is similar and if you add in our EEZ then that gap in size closes somewhat.

                              The threats you have listed are all real, but where is the voice in discourse putting this forward?? The former military seem to be only finding their voices now and they are focusing, understandably, on terms and conditions for existing members. I am curious on where the assertion that the commission on defence is being done to appease our EU "partners"?

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