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  1. #76
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Well the head of the Coast Guard (ex NS) currently Head of Misson EUCAPSOM had an interesting take on this today.

    At 2 hours notice (which is what the Nimrod was at)

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Well the head of the Coast Guard (ex NS) currently Head of Misson EUCAPSOM had an interesting take on this today.

    This is a bit of a "red herring", if the IAC were to have the chance to do it for 2 years, then they would have to be able not only to have the additional aircraft available but also the people resources. Getting the aircraft for a 2 year trial would not be an issue (if the money was made available) but building up sufficient personnel for 2 years is not practical. The AC has in any case demonstrated that when called upon to do a 24/7 service it can (and that despite no additional resources been allocated), even if it was hard at times. But should someone insist on a 2 year trial then swap the EAS to CHC and in return the AC take over the Dublin SAR cover. I have no doubt that the AC would be able to do the job.

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  5. #78
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    What does:
    1.the Air Corps in particular,
    2. the wider DF in general
    3. or indeed the country

    gain from having SAR done by the Air Corps?

    "Because we used to do it" is not a good enough answer, imho.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
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    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  7. #79
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    This is a bit of a "red herring", if the IAC were to have the chance to do it for 2 years, then they would have to be able not only to have the additional aircraft available but also the people resources. Getting the aircraft for a 2 year trial would not be an issue (if the money was made available) but building up sufficient personnel for 2 years is not practical. The AC has in any case demonstrated that when called upon to do a 24/7 service it can (and that despite no additional resources been allocated), even if it was hard at times. But should someone insist on a 2 year trial then swap the EAS to CHC and in return the AC take over the Dublin SAR cover. I have no doubt that the AC would be able to do the job.

    The AC has never been able to guarantee availability for anything 24/7 that’s the point (GASU and EAS being the exceptions)

    They have never been “declared” assets and have only have been put on an “as available” basis (and that includes SAR at Finner, Baldonnel, Finner and Waterford when those detachments were operating).

    GASU has its own establishment that I assume is kept up to strength.
    EASU is only able to operate because they can call on every type rates AW139 pilot (including Lt Col Wing Commanders) and even then had to go offline.

    It would probably take at least a year to get AC pilots up to the right level of hours on type that they could act as Pilot in Command on a S92.

    The only way for the AC to take up any job would be given more resources (strength and establishment) and he given time to build hours and experience before starting the service.

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  9. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    The AC has never been able to guarantee availability for anything 24/7 that’s the point (GASU and EAS being the exceptions)

    They have never been “declared” assets and have only have been put on an “as available” basis (and that includes SAR at Finner, Baldonnel, Finner and Waterford when those detachments were operating).

    GASU has its own establishment that I assume is kept up to strength.
    EASU is only able to operate because they can call on every type rates AW139 pilot (including Lt Col Wing Commanders) and even then had to go offline.

    It would probably take at least a year to get AC pilots up to the right level of hours on type that they could act as Pilot in Command on a S92.

    The only way for the AC to take up any job would be given more resources (strength and establishment) and he given time to build hours and experience before starting the service.
    I will say again, as it seems I was not clear, I do not believe that the AC could tomorrow take up the SAR role due to the lack of personnel. What I did say however as proved b the operation of EAS (which they have to do without any uplifts of equipment or establishment) proves that the AC is capable of organising and running a 24-hr service. It has not been easy or smooth due to that lack of resource uplift.

    My suggestion to swap for a year or two was just that, CHC deploy a S-92 to cover the EAS mission and the AC replace the Dublin SAR with an AW-139. The AW-139's have winches, FLIR and flotation devices that allow them to operate over water. Initially the AW-139 could carry a CHC winchman if needed. It is about providing a possible way to answer the comments from Chris Reynolds.

    Naturally if the decision was then taken to give the AC the SAR portfolio then naturally crew need to be trained and equipment sourced.

  10. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flamingo View Post
    What does:
    1.the Air Corps in particular,
    2. the wider DF in general
    3. or indeed the country

    gain from having SAR done by the Air Corps?

    "Because we used to do it" is not a good enough answer, imho.
    These answers are only for the Q3:
    - A private company such as CHC can cease business, it can go bust as many though a few years ago.
    - A private company need to make a profit typical by having a mark-up of 10-15% above the cost of the service.
    - The assets provided by the contract can only ever be used for the purposes in that contract. If anything other than SAR is included it must e paid for up front (fire fighting, EAS etc)

    For the Q1 & Q2:
    - The AC providing an essential service for the nation improves the standing of the DF's with the general public.

    Now to turn the question around: what does the State get by having a private company provide an essential "blue light" service?
    And if it works so well for SAR should it not contract out all similar "blue light" services such as the ambulance and fire brigade services?

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  12. #82
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    I will say again, as it seems I was not clear, I do not believe that the AC could tomorrow take up the SAR role due to the lack of personnel. What I did say however as proved b the operation of EAS (which they have to do without any uplifts of equipment or establishment) proves that the AC is capable of organising and running a 24-hr service. It has not been easy or smooth due to that lack of resource uplift.

    My suggestion to swap for a year or two was just that, CHC deploy a S-92 to cover the EAS mission and the AC replace the Dublin SAR with an AW-139. The AW-139's have winches, FLIR and flotation devices that allow them to operate over water. Initially the AW-139 could carry a CHC winchman if needed. It is about providing a possible way to answer the comments from Chris Reynolds.

    Naturally if the decision was then taken to give the AC the SAR portfolio then naturally crew need to be trained and equipment sourced.
    EAS is daylight only not 24/7 and only possible by being able to call on all AC rotary wing type qualified pilots.

    It would require EAS to be suspended along with the vast majority of rotary wing ops.

    The strength is the number of people they physically have, the establishment is how many they are supposed to have. The establishment doesn’t allow for 1 heli 24/7, it doesn’t even allow for permanent detachment of 1 for daylight ops.

    A medium lift & range heli is required due to the amount of casualties it may have to uplift and the fact that it may need to deploy to the West Coast.




    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    These answers are only for the Q3:
    - A private company such as CHC can cease business, it can go bust as many though a few years ago.
    - A private company need to make a profit typical by having a mark-up of 10-15% above the cost of the service.
    - The assets provided by the contract can only ever be used for the purposes in that contract. If anything other than SAR is included it must e paid for up front (fire fighting, EAS etc)

    For the Q1 & Q2:
    - The AC providing an essential service for the nation improves the standing of the DF's with the general public.

    Now to turn the question around: what does the State get by having a private company provide an essential "blue light" service?
    And if it works so well for SAR should it not contract out all similar "blue light" services such as the ambulance and fire brigade services?
    The contract does allow for various other taskings

    These aircraft respond to emergencies at sea, inland waterways, offshore islands and mountains of Ireland (32 counties).

    They can also be used for assistance in flooding, major inland emergencies, intra-hospital transfers, pollution, and aerial surveillance during daylight hours, lifting and passenger operations and other operations as authorised by the Coast Guard within appropriate regulations.

    The Coast Guard can contract specialised aerial surveillance or dispersant spraying aircraft at short notice internationally.

    Helicopter tasks include:

    the location of marine and aviation incident survivors by homing onto aviation and marine radio distress transmissions, by guidance from other agencies, and by visual, electronic and electro-optical search
    the evacuation of survivors from the sea, and medical evacuees from all manner of vessels including high-sided passenger and cargo vessels and from the islands
    the evacuation of personnel from ships facing potential disaster
    search and or rescue in mountainous areas, caves, rivers, lakes and waterways
    the transport of offshore fire-fighters (MFRTs) or ambulance teams (MARTs) and their equipment following a request for assistance
    the provision of safety cover for other search and rescue units including other Marine Emergency Service helicopters
    pollution, casualty and salvage inspections and surveillance and the transport of associated personnel and equipment
    inter-agency training in all relevant aspects of the primary role
    onshore emergency medical service, including evacuation and air ambulance tasks
    relief of the islands and of areas suffering from flooding or deep snow
    The secondary roles of the helicopter are:

    the exercise of the primary search, rescue and evacuation roles in adjacent search and rescue regions
    assistance to onshore emergency services, such as in the evacuation of high-rise buildings
    public safety awareness displays and demonstrations
    providing helicopter expertise for seminars and training courses

  13. #83
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    Ambulances are not a fair comparison as the State relies extensively on private and public ambulances.

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  15. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    EAS is daylight only not 24/7 and only possible by being able to call on all AC rotary wing type qualified pilots.

    It would require EAS to be suspended along with the vast majority of rotary wing ops.

    The strength is the number of people they physically have, the establishment is how many they are supposed to have. The establishment doesn’t allow for 1 heli 24/7, it doesn’t even allow for permanent detachment of 1 for daylight ops.

    A medium lift & range heli is required due to the amount of casualties it may have to uplift and the fact that it may need to deploy to the West Coast.






    The contract does allow for various other taskings
    Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?

  16. #85
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?
    I didn’t say that I said it is not possible for the AC to do it

    They don’t have the personnel and won’t have without a major increase in establishment and strength
    They don’t have suitable aircraft
    They don’t have the budget
    And DoD are involved

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  18. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I didn’t say that I said it is not possible for the AC to do it

    They don’t have the personnel and won’t have without a major increase in establishment and strength
    They don’t have suitable aircraft
    They don’t have the budget
    And DoD are involved
    And all based at one location in the east of the country .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  20. #87
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    Same as back in the 80s, when everyone on the west coast was screaming for a 24 hour service on the west coast.
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  21. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    I didn’t say that I said it is not possible for the AC to do it

    They don’t have the personnel and won’t have without a major increase in establishment and strength
    They don’t have suitable aircraft
    They don’t have the budget
    And DoD are involved
    That are all arguments as to why the AC should not do SAR but it does not answer my question which was:
    "Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?"

  22. #89
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    That are all arguments as to why the AC should not do SAR but it does not answer my question which was:
    "Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?"
    It isn't. The state should fund ,equip and provide for a proper Irish Coast Guard SAR heli service.With the personnel being employees of the state and the Airframes being state assets. The AC should NOT fill that role as it diverts scare resources away from it's primary mission. The problem is that despite the state being well able to spend money on white elephants on a yearly basis it seems to have a "I want my cake( Taxpayers money) and to eat it (capital assets)". IE the State WANTS a SAR service but is too cheap to buy the equipment and set up the service properly(Not contracted out). Result?. Dump it on the AC for decades as a way of getting the resource on the cheap with the side effect being that some top brass see this task as their sole raison d'etre.

    If penny pinching is the Governments sole focus then god help us if we go back to having a hard border in January. I would love to see where the DF is going to get the Helis it will inevitably need if they are all tied up on SAR duties 24/7.Those bleating about the AC taking back SAR for nostalgic reasons seem to be conveniently skipping over that harsh reality.Anybody remember Colemans Island????
    "105,000 dead. 40,000,000 unemployed. Police murdering African-Americans. You’ve completed you’re mission. You’ve made America great. Now get the f**k out."

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  24. #90
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    That are all arguments as to why the AC should not do SAR but it does not answer my question which was:
    "Why is it better for the State to have an essential "Blue Light" service provided by a "for profit" private company?"
    Depends if you are sitting on the side of a cliff face with a broken leg or 100nm off the coast in a sinking vessel and you want a helicopter that will actually be guaranteed to turn up or not.

    It also depends if the population continues to want to have EAS.

    It also depends on if the State needs to be able to deploy forces operational quickly on island operationally or in training via helicopter.

    Why did AC lose SAR because the State was unwilling to provide the necessary aircraft or level of personnel required to guarantee the service!
    Last edited by DeV; 1st November 2020 at 14:49.

  25. #91
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    The argument seems to be not that the State doesn’t need a SAR or EAS (or indeed MATS), but which state asset is best placed to provide it. I would say that it’s time to stop viewing the Air Corps as the be-all, end-all, and above all cheap option.

    Arguments about raising the profile of the Air Corps with the public are smoke and mirrors. The DF has been doing this service for many years, with such a resultant raise in its profile that the DoD can block purchase of a cut-price P12 using the argument “There is not enough Hanger Space” without anyone calling BS or the public caring. It’s probably time to stop chasing that particular rabbit.
    Last edited by Flamingo; 1st November 2020 at 16:11.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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  27. #92
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...aft-for-rescue

    AC haven’t been able to provide it a lot too

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  29. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...aft-for-rescue

    AC haven’t been able to provide it a lot too
    Dog in the manger?
    If the CASA is unable to operate 24 hr because of shortage of ATC, then it should be moved somewhere with 24 hr ATC, or otherwise not declare as an asset.
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  31. #94
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Dog in the manger?
    If the CASA is unable to operate 24 hr because of shortage of ATC, then it should be moved somewhere with 24 hr ATC, or otherwise not declare as an asset.
    ATC is one issue (since solved)

    But the Sqn will also need enough aircrew and tech personnel (who don’t have other duties) to have an aircraft available 24/7 (at 1-2 hours notice). Even if they had all the personnel the establishment says they should they aren’t resourced for it. If they have already flown a long maritime patrol in the 24 hour duty period and a top cover mission is requested they may need to turn it down as it would push them over safe limits.

    Even if on call at home, travel time, sleeping/time to wake up etc all have to factored in.

    Realistic you may need a 12 hour roster and that possibly means even more personnel.

    It’s doable but only if resourced

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    The military system has it's own built-in trip ups; promotion, courses, postings, other duties and so on (and that's just on a personnel handling basis) that get in the way of a true 24 hr system. Like I said before, the old UK Mil SAR system worked because it effectively ran itself seperately from the bulk of the RAF combat arm. People only stepped outside of it to go on courses. Civvy SAR systems don't require it's techs to go to the Curragh for 16 weeks to learn how to conduct "platoon in attack" so that they can put up a Corporal's stripes. When techs or pilots in civvy street go on courses, they are replaced. First of all because the situation requires it and secondly, because the law often requires it. The IAA are very big on minimum manning levels and civvy firms are not allowed to operate below them...Unfortunately, the AC is so short of manpower that when a man or woman goes on a course, they are often not replaced and the system is left short. That's not confined to the AC. Army workshops are all short of their establishments for techs and post holders. The Naval Service situation is equally well known.

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  34. #96
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    If CHC operate SAR then surely it should provide its own Top Cover 24/7, I know they use their own Helicopters at times to do it then it should of been made a part of the Contract and leave the Air Corp out of it altogether.

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  36. #97
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    So is Coveney considering a change to a degree?
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...ract-1.4412481
    He agreed with the appraisal and said “I do not see the Air Corps taking full responsibility for SAR services in Ireland’s search and rescue domain.

    “However, I would like to explore further the option of the Air Corps providing some element of the SAR aviation service, given its historical role in this area.”

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  38. #98
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    The military system has it's own built-in trip ups; promotion, courses, postings, other duties and so on (and that's just on a personnel handling basis) that get in the way of a true 24 hr system. Like I said before, the old UK Mil SAR system worked because it effectively ran itself seperately from the bulk of the RAF combat arm. People only stepped outside of it to go on courses. Civvy SAR systems don't require it's techs to go to the Curragh for 16 weeks to learn how to conduct "platoon in attack" so that they can put up a Corporal's stripes. When techs or pilots in civvy street go on courses, they are replaced. First of all because the situation requires it and secondly, because the law often requires it. The IAA are very big on minimum manning levels and civvy firms are not allowed to operate below them...Unfortunately, the AC is so short of manpower that when a man or woman goes on a course, they are often not replaced and the system is left short. That's not confined to the AC. Army workshops are all short of their establishments for techs and post holders. The Naval Service situation is equally well known.
    If the AC is ever to operate tactically (bearing in mind that AC personnel can fill line infantry appointments overseas and should it ever be required they may need to defend Baldonnel or a FARP) every recruit/apprentice/cadet needs probably up to Pln level tactics.

    But there will be a lot in some course that they would never need. The AC is a small organisation so running bespoken AC career courses will be more problematic the higher up the ranks you go (eg you could have 3 students for a AC C&S Cse every 3 years or SNCOs Cse.

    So maybe they should complete only modules of DF courses (for arguments sake MOI block from PNCOs) and add specific AC modules..... could do some elements (or whole Cses) with RAF?

  39. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    So is Coveney considering a change to a degree?
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...ract-1.4412481
    What is being mentioned in some circles is taking the East coast SAR, where a AW139 would be "adequate" or Fixed wing Top Cover, which can be done by the Lear, if necessary.
    How realistic either of these ideas are is open to debate.
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  40. #100
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    What is being mentioned in some circles is taking the East coast SAR, where a AW139 would be "adequate" or Fixed wing Top Cover, which can be done by the Lear, if necessary.
    How realistic either of these ideas are is open to debate.
    Some have said AW139 is used elsewhere for SAR so why not here

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