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  1. #1
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Commission on Defence - what we actually know.

    Due to the truly excessive amounts of wittering on the Commission thus far, here's a reminder of what it is.

    1. What is it : A programme for Government commitment. That's it, nothing more.

    2. PfG was written q1 2020 and enabled FF, FG, GP to go into government on a shared basis .

    3. is it a White Paper where there's analysis done on threats, defence policy and the defence landscape ? No , because if it was, it'd be called a White Paper

    4. White papers last for 10-15 years and the last was in 2015, with an update in December 2019 ( see https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/...e-update-2019/ )

    5. Where are they on progressing stuff in the white paper ? <- off topic but its project based anddddd go look for yourself or we will get well off this topic chuckle.

    6. How's it get set up ? Most likely Minister brings draft heads of terms of reference and commission membership to Cabinet for signoff and we'll go from there

    7. When's it supposed to happen : supposed to be up and running before end of 2020, and read out before 12 months are up. See https://www.offalyindependent.ie/202...es-commission/

    8. What else do we know ? I'll post the text of the Pfg Commitment at the end.

    9. Anything else ? Yes. Don't get your hopes up. Typically reviews and commissions are to kick to touch for a while. White paper progress ( see above White paper update link ) will tell you all you need to know about how quickly stuff will happen.


    This is not the speculative thread to discuss what might happen, this is for what we ACTUALLY know will be in it, please dont knock it off course by idle "if only we went back to Coastal Artillery" type stuff.


    https://static.rasset.ie/documents/n...e-for-govt.pdf

    In order to meet the medium and longer term defence requirements of the State an independent
    Commission will be established. This Commission will undertake a comprehensive review which will
    include the following matters:
    • Arrangements for the effective defence of the country at land and sea.
    • Structures for governance, joint command and control structures.
    • The brigade structure.
    • Pay and allowances and composition of the Defence Forces.
    • Recruitment. retention and career progression.
    • The contribution of the Reserve Defence Forces, including its legislation and Defence Forces
    regulations governing it and whether specialists from the RDF should be able to serve
    overseas.
    The Commission will contain a wide variety of expertise such as management, human resources,
    academia, law, public service, as well as members with external military expertise from countries
    similar in size to Ireland and also from states that like Ireland are non-aligned militarily.
    We will consult widely on the terms of reference for the Commission which will be established by end
    of 2020 with a mandate to report within twelve months.
    The outcome of this review will remain grounded in a policy of active military neutrality and
    participative multilateralism through the United Nations and European Union.
    Upon completion of the Commissions work, a permanent pay review body will be established,
    reflecting the unique nature of military service in the context of the public service. All
    recommendations by the Commission or the successor body and their implementation must be
    consistent with national public sector wage policy
    In short if you don't have an update to facts here please post in another thread !
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  3. #2
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Update - PQs 17 Nov 2020

    The establishment of a commission on the Defence Forces was an important commitment made in the recently agreed programme for Government. The programme for Government states that the commission will be tasked with undertaking a comprehensive review, which will include the following matters: arrangements for the effective defence of the country at land, air and sea; structures for governance, joint command, and control structures; the brigade structure; pay and allowances and composition of the Defence Forces; recruitment, retention and career progression; the contribution of the Reserve Defence Force, RDF, including its legislation and Defence Forces regulations governing it; and whether specialists from the RDF should be able to serve overseas.

    The programme for Government also provides that the commission be established before the end of this year with a mandate to report within 12 months. I am working with officials in my Department in order to ensure this timeline for the establishment of the commission is more than met. I hope it will be established by the end of this month is we can.

    My immediate priority concerns the commission’s terms of reference. In accordance with a commitment made in the programme for Government, I have consulted widely on the terms of reference and analysis of all of the various submissions received, including one from the Deputy, is still ongoing. In this regard, I expect to finalise draft terms of reference for the commission shortly and to bring proposals to Government for approval in the coming weeks.

    On the recommendations of the commission on pay and other issues, I cannot pre-empt the outcome of the commission's work but I would point out that the programme for Government states that on completion of the commission's work a permanent pay review body is be established reflecting the unique nature of military service in the context of the public service. It also states that all recommendations by the commission, or the successor body, and their implementation must be consistent with national public sector wage policy.
    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates...-11-17/25/#s26

    Note again this is not a discussion thread. Opinion posts will be deleted
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Two posts moved out of thread. Again - non-factual/opinion posts will be moved/deleted. It is not a discussion thread. If you have new facts e.g. who will be on the commission, what its terms of reference are and so forth, they can go in here. Everything else - somewhere else.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  7. #4
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    Commission to be formed within 10 to 14 days, per minister to RDFRA today.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  9. #5
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    Minister Coveney announces Government approval to establish Independent Commission on the Defence Forces

    https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/...efence-forces/

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  11. #6
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Commission on the Defence Forces

    Press Release by the Minister for Defence and the Minister for Foreign Affairs

    Mr. Simon Coveney T.D.

    15th December 2020
    Commission on the Defence Forces

    Press Release by the Minister for Defence and the Minister for Foreign Affairs

    Mr. Simon Coveney T.D.

    15th December 2020

    Minister for Defence and Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Simon Coveney T.D., has today announced Government approval for the establishment of an independent Commission on the Defence Forces. The Government also approved the Terms of Reference and the membership of the Commission. Today’s decision taken at Cabinet follows a commitment made in the Programme for Government to establish a Commission on the Defence Forces before the end of the year.

    Speaking following today’s Government meeting, Minister Coveney stated: “The establishment of an independent Commission on the Defence Forces underpins the Government’s commitment to ensuring that the Defence Forces are fit for purpose, both in terms of meeting immediate requirements and also in terms of seeking to develop a longer term vision for beyond 2030. In establishing this Commission, which contains impressive national and international high-level expertise and experience, the Government are seeking to ensure that the outcome of this process will be a Defence Forces that is agile, flexible and adaptive in responding to dynamic changes in the security environment, including new and emerging threats and technologies.”

    The Minister noted that the Terms of Reference require that the Commission’s overall approach will be guided and informed by both the White Paper on Defence 2015 and the White Paper Update 2019, which set out Ireland’s overall Defence Policy approach. This is against a backdrop of the high-level Defence goal which is to provide for the military defence of the State, contribute to national and international peace and security and fulfil all other roles assigned by Government. This fits within the broader context of the protection of Ireland’s defence and security interests nationally and internationally.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  13. #7
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Announcing the membership of the Commission, the Minister said: “I am delighted that Mr Aidan O’Driscoll, former Secretary General of the Department of Justice, and previously Secretary General of the Department of Agriculture, has agreed to chair the Commission on the Defence Forces. Mr O’Driscoll has an exceptional track record of service to the State and I know he brings an outstanding set of skills and experience to the role, as will the other members of the Commission. The members have been carefully chosen to ensure the optimum range of expertise in key areas including management, HR, security policy, public service, as well as both domestic and international military expertise.”

    The Minister thanked the Chairperson and the members of the Commission for their willingness to serve, and noted that he looks forward to receiving the Commission’s Report in 12 months’ time.

    Notes for Editors

    1. The establishment of an independent Commission on the Defence Forces is an important commitment made in the Programme for Government, which provides that the Commission is to be established before the end of this year, with a mandate to report within 12 months.

    2. In accordance with a commitment made in the Programme for Government, the Minister consulted widely on the Terms of Reference, involving a wide stakeholder group comprising the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence, the Defence Forces representative associations, the Defence Forces veterans associations, the unions and associations representing Department of Defence staff and civilian employees, the Defence spokespersons of Sinn Féin, Social Democrats and Labour, the Institute of International and European Affairs, the Royal Irish Academy and all other Government Departments. All submissions were considered in finalising the Terms of Reference.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  14. #8
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    3. Terms of Reference of the Commission on the Defence Forces

    In addressing the detailed tasks as provided for in its Terms of Reference, the Commission will have regard to immediate requirements while also seeking to develop a longer term vision for beyond 2030. This is against a backdrop of the high-level Defence goal which is to provide for the military defence of the State, contribute to national and international peace and security and fulfil all other roles assigned by Government. This fits within the broader context of the protection of Ireland’s defence and security interests nationally and internationally. The Commission’s approach should aim to ensure that the Defence Forces will remain agile, flexible and adaptive in responding to dynamic changes in the security environment, including new and emerging threats (such as from climate change) and technologies.

    It is understood that recommendations of the Commission may require legislative changes.

    In arriving at its findings and recommendations for arrangements for the effective defence of the country, the Commission will have regard to the level of funding provided by Government for Defence.

    The following Terms of Reference, and the Commission’s overall approach will be guided and informed by both the White Paper on Defence 2015 and the White Paper Update 2019, which set out Ireland’s extant Defence Policy, including the current Security Environment Assessment, as set out in the White Paper Update.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  15. #9
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    • The Commission will take account of Ireland’s particular defence requirements, including its strong international commitment in the overseas domain as well as the particular roles of the Defence Forces in the domestic security environment which itself continues to evolve.

    • The Commission will consider and recommend the appropriate structure and size of the Permanent Defence Force (PDF) and the Reserve Defence Force (RDF). This will encompass consideration of appropriate capabilities, structures and staffing for the Army, and its brigade structure, the Air Corps and the Naval Service along with the appropriate balance and disposition of personnel and structures across a joint force approach in the land, air, maritime, cyber, intelligence and space domains.

    • With regard to the RDF, the Commission will consider a wide range of options and will make recommendations to better leverage the capabilities of the RDF in their supports to the PDF and to make service in the RDF a more attractive option.

    • The Commission will examine the structures in the Defence Forces as well as the work of the White Paper C2 project to date. In that context, the Commission will consider the most appropriate governance and effective high-level command and control structures in the Defence Forces.

    • The Commission will review the remuneration systems currently in place in the Defence Forces, including the range and structures of pay, allowances and non-pay elements, noting what the Programme for Government states in relation to a future permanent pay review body. Upon completion of the Commission’s work, a permanent pay review body will be established, reflecting the unique nature of military service in the context of the public service. All recommendations by the Commission or the successor body and their implementation must be consistent with national public sector wage policy
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  17. #10
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Membership of the Commission on the Defence Forces

    Chair: Aidan O’Driscoll, former Secretary General, Department of Agriculture 2015-2018 and Department of Justice and Equality 2018-2020. Department of Agriculture Chief Economist from 1995 to 2001 and Assistant Secretary General from 2001 to January 2015 for EU Affairs, Economics and Climate Change.

    Admiral Haakon Bruun-Hanssen, retired Norwegian Chief of Defence (2020) and formerly Chief of the Armed Forces Joint Operations and Inspector General of the Norwegian Navy.

    Shay Cody, former Chair of ICTU Public Services Committee and retired Senior General Secretary of Forsa 2010-2019.

    Marie Cross, retired Assistant Secretary, Department of Foreign Affairs, former Ambassador to the EU Political-Security Committee (PSC), member of the Board of the IIEA and Chair of its Defence and Security Committee. Was a member of the White Paper (2015) Ministerial Advisory Group.

    Anja Dalgaard-Nielsen, Danish researcher and security policy expert. She is head of the Department of Strategy at the Defence Academy and Professor (part time) at the Centre for Social Security and Risk Management at the University of Stavanger. She is former head of the Department of Preventive Security in the Police Intelligence Service. In June she was appointed to the advisory group to the NATO Secretary General on NATO 2030.

    Caitriona Heinl, Executive Director at the Azure Forum for Contemporary Security Strategy, Ireland and Adjunct Research Fellow at the School of Politics and International Relations at UCD.

    John Minihan, former Senator and retired Captain in the Defence Forces. Chair of 2015 White Paper Ministerial Advisory Group.

    Lieutenant General Conor O’Boyle (Retd.), former Irish Defence Forces Chief of Staff and previously Deputy Chief of Staff (Support) and General Officer Commanding Defence Forces Training Centre.

    Lieutenant General Esa Pukkinnen, Finnish military officer who is a 3 star General (equivalent to rank of Defence Forces Chief of Staff). Previously, Director General of the EU Military Staff and military strategic adviser to the High Representative.

    Geraldine Tallon, former Secretary General, Department of Environment, Community and Local Government (2007-2014) and ex Chair of Department of Defence Audit Committee (2014-2019). Chair of the Catholic Institute for Deaf People.

    Jane Williams, Managing Partner, SIA Partners Management Consultants and former Eirgrid PLC Board member and interim CEO 2009-2010. She has served on the Board of the National Competitiveness Council, the Irish Universities Quality Board, TLAC and a number of other boards and committees.

    5. The Commission will be supported by an independent Secretariat under the direction of the Chairman and will have available to it specific legal expertise and access to any additional research or analysis required to be carried out on its behalf.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  19. #11
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    REPEATING FOR CLARITY - THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION THREAD - start another thread to discuss
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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    Other members areas follows
    Dan Harvey. Military historian, museum curator, and a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the Defence Forces. As an author he has written extensively about the history of the Defence Forces.


    Gerry Waldron. Currently works as a medical doctor and Director of Slándáil (National Security Summit Ireland). He previously served as an officer in the Defence Forces for 16 years in a variety of roles at home and overseas with the United Nations.

  21. #13
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    mod note : my apologies I missed putting in
    those two members. Good spot
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  22. #14
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Update : In relation to the C2 project above, I am assuming this is project No. 26

    Source : White Paper Update 2019 https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/a5...e-update-2019/

    The Secretary General and Chief of Staff will jointly undertake a
    review of the current high level command and control structures in
    the Defence Forces, having regard to international best practice on
    military command and control and drawing upon external expertise.
    This will include a review of structures for managing joint operations
    and intelligence.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  24. #15
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    The Commission on the Defence Forces has launched a public consultation which will run until 5 March 2021.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/1e51...w.gov.ie/codf/

    Public Consultation - Have Your Say
    The Commission on the Defence Forces has been tasked by Government to undertake a comprehensive review of the Defence Forces and to report on its recommendations by the end of 2021. As part of its work, the Commission is conducting a public consultation and invites your views.

    In the context of the current security environment and the roles of the Defence Forces as assigned by Government to the Defence Forces, and having regard to the detailed Terms of Reference assigned to the Commission on the Defence Forces by Government, you are invited to make a submission to the Commission under any or all of the four following headings:

    1. Capabilities

    2. Structures

    3. Staffing

    4. Any other comments in relation to the Defence Forces having regard to the Commission’s Terms of Reference

    Your submission can be as brief as you wish but, in any event, should not exceed 5,000 words in total. A response template is attached.

    The formal consultation process will run until 5 March 2021 and submissions are welcome from any interested parties. Using the response template, you are invited to email your submission to info@codf.gov.ie or alternatively to send it by post to:

    Commission on the Defence Forces
    Address:Floor 1 West, Agriculture House, Kildare Street, Dublin 2, D02 WK12
    Email:info@codf.gov.ie
    Please note that submissions received will not be responded to, but their receipt will be acknowledged. Submissions will be collated with a view to informing the deliberations of the Commission on the Defence Forces. Personal, confidential or commercially sensitive information should not be included in your submission. All submissions will be subject to Freedom of Information and Data Protection legislation. Following the closing of the consultation period, submissions may be made available on the website of the Commission on the Defence Forces, but individuals’ names will not be disclosed.
    Last edited by na grohmiti; 22nd January 2021 at 21:04.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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  26. #16
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    http://www.gov.ie/codf/

    Minutes of meetings will be published on their website

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  28. #17
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Parliamentary Q Answer
    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates...21/167/#pq_167

    Deputy Ged Nash asked the Minister for Defence if he will provide details of organisations and individuals that made submissions to the commission on the Defence Forces, including those that specifically called for a review of the Department of Defence to be included in the terms of reference; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

    In accordance with a commitment made in the Programme for Government, the Government gave their approval on 15th December 2020 to establish an independent Commission on the Defence Forces, with a mandate to report within 12 months. The Government also approved the Terms of Reference and the membership of the Commission.

    The establishment of an independent Commission on the Defence Forces underpins the Government's commitment to ensuring that the Defence Forces are fit for purpose, both in terms of meeting immediate requirements and also in terms of seeking to develop a longer term vision beyond 2030. In establishing the Commission, which contains impressive national and international high-level expertise and experience, the Government are seeking to ensure that the outcome of this process will be a Defence Forces that is agile, flexible and adaptive in responding to dynamic changes in the security environment, including new and emerging threats and technologies.


    I can confirm that 18 submissions were received in response to a consultation process that I initiated on the Commission's Terms of Reference, involving a wide stakeholder group comprising the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence, the Defence Forces representative associations, the Defence Forces veterans associations, the unions and associations representing Department of Defence staff and civilian employees, the Defence spokespersons of the Sinn Féin, Social Democrat and Labour parties, the Institute of International and European Affairs, the Royal Irish Academy and all other Government Departments. These submissions, which included a broad range of views on matters which the Commission will be tasked, were carefully considered in the drafting of the Commission's Terms of Reference.

    The Terms of Reference, and the Commission's overall approach will be guided and informed by both the White Paper on Defence 2015 and the White Paper Update 2019, which set out Ireland's extant Defence Policy, including the current Security Environment Assessment, as set out in the White Paper Update.

    Below is a list of all those organisations that made submissions:
    Organisations

    • Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence
    • Labour Party
    • Social Democrats Party
    • Permanent Defence Forces Other Ranks Representative Association
    • Representative Association of Commissioned Officers
    • Reserve Defence Force Representative Association
    • Association of Retired Commissioned Officers
    • Organisation of National Ex-Service Personnel
    • Institute of International and European Affairs
    • Royal Irish Academy
    • Joint Industrial Council for State Industrial Employees
    • Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine
    • Department of Public Expenditure and Reform
    • Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications
    • Department of Foreign Affairs
    • Department of Health
    • Department of Justice
    • Department of Transport
    Last edited by trellheim; 23rd January 2021 at 14:36.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  30. #18
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    Minutes of the first meeting of the Commission on the Defence Forces which was held on Tuesday 22 December 2020 by video conference.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/03...irst-meeting/#
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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    Post removed. Again. THIS IS NOT AN OPINION THREAD. Unless you have an factual update on the Commission's work , post it elsewhere. .
    Last edited by trellheim; 2nd February 2021 at 10:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Post removed. Again. THIS IS NOT AN OPINION THREAD. Unless you have an factual update on the Commission's work , post it elsewhere. .
    It's a fact that of the 18 acknowledged submissions 10 are from parliamentary and Government departments.

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    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    That's correct and the 18 are listed above already up-thread. Note that these were submissions on the Terms of Reference .
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

  34. #22
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    opinion posts moved again - we have other threads for Commission discussion.

    Clock is ticking on submissions folks. If anyone feels strongly I recommend they submit to the CoD.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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  36. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    opinion posts moved again - we have other threads for Commission discussion.

    Clock is ticking on submissions folks. If anyone feels strongly I recommend they submit to the CoD.
    Closing date is 5 March

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  38. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by trellheim View Post
    opinion posts moved again - we have other threads for Commission discussion.

    Clock is ticking on submissions folks. If anyone feels strongly I recommend they submit to the CoD.
    I have done so by submission and FB. I quoted directly from Terms of Reference why is that an opinion please.

  39. #25
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    Because this is not a thread for *discussion* of the Commission, its TOR or otherwise. We have other threads for that and you are more than welcome to do so.

    Do not post again on this thread unless you have a new fact regarding the commission, holidays from the forum will ensue otherwise. No more warnings.
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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