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  1. #26
    Hostage Flamingo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Allows for a much more flexible responsive organisation
    That’s true, and if there were hundreds hammering on the gates to join it would not be a problem.
    'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
    'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
    Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
    He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
    http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

  2. #27
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Allows for a much more flexible responsive organisation
    Goes back to the ethos of everybody being an infantryman at entry level and everything after that is there to support the infantryman, common denominator.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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  4. #28
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    On Marine Traffic there is a Portugal flagged vessel named Lundy Sentinel off the south east coast , it's showing as operating fishery protection and has the EU logo painted on it's hull , I've never seen anything like it before . It appears to be close to what would be the Irish/EU and UK line . Anyone any info on this .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  7. #30
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  9. #31
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    The ship was originally UK flagged (it's now Portugal) and the company UK based when the contract commenced in 2018 (pre Brexit ) for what is a EU funded contract , has the company relocated to the EU to continue operating the contract ?
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  11. #32
    Amadan Orion's Avatar
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    The company registered office is still listed as:

    The Exchange 1, Eighth Floor, 62 Market Street, Aberdeen, Scotland, AB11 5PJ

    There was an open call for tender:

    https://www.efca.europa.eu/en/conten...-patrol-vessel

    The press announcement of the award was dated 07/12/2017

    Deployment due to start in 2018

    As the contract was tendered, awarded and deployment commenced before the UK left the EU I suspect they didn't set up an operating company in Portugal.

    Its an interesting question though there must be literally thousands of contracts still held by UK companies even though they have now left. Presumably they will just run their course.
    Last edited by Orion; 9th February 2021 at 16:27.

  12. #33
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    I assume that reflagging the ship to Portugal looks better for a ship working on behalf of the EU .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  14. #34
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    Is that like when the Icelandic ship went to the Med?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    I assume that reflagging the ship to Portugal looks better for a ship working on behalf of the EU .
    Lundy Sentinel is registered in Madeira, a Portuguese Island. Her mandate includes all elements of our non-military roles including rescue and illegal activity. As an ERRV her crew would have little training on the technical nuances and legal frameworks to decide on illegal behaviour. They may be only look and record but detaining on suspicion requires Acts of Parliament and due authority as accorded to Naval personnel from the rank of Petty Officer. The question is who carries what authority on board and Nationally/territorially where do we stand.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Lundy Sentinel is registered in Madeira, a Portuguese Island. Her mandate includes all elements of our non-military roles including rescue and illegal activity. As an ERRV her crew would have little training on the technical nuances and legal frameworks to decide on illegal behaviour. They may be only look and record but detaining on suspicion requires Acts of Parliament and due authority as accorded to Naval personnel from the rank of Petty Officer. The question is who carries what authority on board and Nationally/territorially where do we stand.
    Her crew no but her embarked inspectors (SFPA/EUe quivalent) yes.

    "As authorised officers, charged with responsibility to enforce seafood safety and sea-fisheries protection legislation, Sea-Fisheries Protection Officers (SFPOs) are entrusted with a broad range of powers under the Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Act 2006, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland Act 1998, and other legislation. These powers include the right to enter and inspect fishing vessels or premises, to inspect, take, remove and detain any sea-fish or sea-food product, to require information from an individual, to detain a vessel or to close a premises.

    https://www.sfpa.ie/What-We-Do/Compl...rcement-Policy

    "Exchange of inspectors
    To increase a uniform level of inspection activities involving control means, EFCA further promoted
    and facilitated the cooperation between Member States by creating multinational inspection teams,
    and facilitating the exchange of inspectors. In 2019 Member States’ deployment equated to 761
    man/days of secondments (at sea and ashore), of which 526 were aboard the EFCA OPV Lundy
    Sentinel. Additionally, 123 man/days by third country inspectors were hosted aboard the EFCA OPV.
    "

    EFCA control means chartered and deployed following the agreed planning of operations
    EFCA’s chartered OPV Lundy Sentinel has been assigned as a fisheries inspection platform for JDPs
    all year around, in line with the commitments provided in the JDP planning. Deployments normally
    comprise two consecutive weeks at sea and two days at port for crew and inspectors exchange, as well
    as the necessary bunkering

    https://marketac.eu/wp-content/uploa...compressed.pdf

    If in EU waters (outside 12 Nautical Miles), all EFCA/EU fisheries inspectors are afforded powers to detain vessel if under JDP
    Last edited by TangoSierra; 10th February 2021 at 21:21.

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  18. #37
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    [QUOTE=TangoSierra;485154]Her crew no but her embarked inspectors (SFPA/EUe quivalent) yes.

    "As authorised officers, charged with responsibility to enforce seafood safety and sea-fisheries protection legislation, Sea-Fisheries Protection Officers (SFPOs) are entrusted with a broad range of powers under the Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Act 2006, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland Act 1998, and other legislation. These powers include the right to enter and inspect fishing vessels or premises, to inspect, take, remove and detain any sea-fish or sea-food product, to require information from an individual, to detain a vessel or to close a premises.

    https://www.sfpa.ie/What-We-Do/Compl...rcement-Policy

    "Exchange of inspectors
    To increase a uniform level of inspection activities involving control means, EFCA further promoted
    and facilitated the cooperation between Member States by creating multinational inspection teams,
    and facilitating the exchange of inspectors. In 2019 Member States’ deployment equated to 761
    man/days of secondments (at sea and ashore), of which 526 were aboard the EFCA OPV Lundy
    Sentinel. Additionally, 123 man/days by third country inspectors were hosted aboard the EFCA OPV.
    "

    The ECFA is a European Union Agency for the Control and management of fisheries throughout the Union. It has connections with NAFO ( Off Newfoundland ) and Frontex for Border Controls. It consists of an Administrative Board ( one Irish member) and an Advisory board ( No Irish member found ) and a large staff with 3 Irish members( possibly 4). The combined budgets for ECFA, FRONTEX, and NAFO is in the order of E 500m.
    The most striking impression are the CV's of the Admin board members some entering NONE for vital information channels. The other striking matter is that the main control is very much Iberian, Latin, and mainland European.
    A basic scan of infringements doesn't seem to outline legal outcomes and penalties. The EFCA is largely Iberian controlled with the Dutch looking after Pelagic harvests. The impression is that certain fish types are "Mine " and your fish is mostly "Mine" as well.

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  20. #38
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    Make you wonder why we need a fisheries monitoring unit when we had 5 ships at haulbowline today, 1 moored in cobh and anothor one at anchor. This is crazy stuff tbh
    Last edited by ibenji; 11th February 2021 at 22:31.

  21. #39
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibenji View Post
    Make you wonder why we need a fisheries monitoring unit when we had 5 ships at haulbowline today, 1 moored in cobh and anothor one Tat anchor. This is crazy stuff tbh
    How many crewed?

  22. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    How many crewed?
    Probably only one. It's a shambles but not down to the navy. It must be so depressing for them. It's a national disgrace.

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  24. #41
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ibenji View Post
    Make you wonder why we need a fisheries monitoring unit when we had 5 ships at haulbowline today, 1 moored in cobh and anothor one at anchor. This is crazy stuff tbh

    Our ships are not designated Fishery Patrol Vessels, that is a secondary role which is part of an SLA with the SFPA.

    FP is carried out whilst on Maritime Defence and Security Patrols.

    The FMC is not just about co-ordinating boarding operations at sea.

    The monitoring of what vessels are fishing where and their quotas etcis a 24/7 365 job of the FMC which works closly with the SFPA.

    The SFPA can inspect vessels upon landing ashore by the FV of their catch.

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  26. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    Our ships are not designated Fishery Patrol Vessels, that is a secondary role which is part of an SLA with the SFPA.

    FP is carried out whilst on Maritime Defence and Security Patrols.

    The FMC is not just about co-ordinating boarding operations at sea.

    The monitoring of what vessels are fishing where and their quotas etcis a 24/7 365 job of the FMC which works closly with the SFPA.

    The SFPA can inspect vessels upon landing ashore by the FV of their catch.
    Why does the SFPA not run the Fisheries Monitoring Centre and ask the Navy for support via ATCA/SLA mechanism?

    If a civilian vessel like the Lundy Sentinel is used as a Fisheries Inspection platform, why does the SFPA not charter their own vessels?

  27. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    Why does the SFPA not run the Fisheries Monitoring Centre and ask the Navy for support via ATCA/SLA mechanism?

    If a civilian vessel like the Lundy Sentinel is used as a Fisheries Inspection platform, why does the SFPA not charter their own vessels?
    The SFPA does not have an EU wide remit. It only manages vessels landing catch in Ireland. It can barely manage what is currently supposed to be doing ashore. The NS monitors all vessels operating within the EEZ on behalf of the EU.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  29. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The SFPA does not have an EU wide remit. It only manages vessels landing catch in Ireland. It can barely manage what is currently supposed to be doing ashore. The NS monitors all vessels operating within the EEZ on behalf of the EU.
    Incorrect on your first point in terms of SFPA jurisdiction. (see Act below)

    I'll plead the 5th on your second point.

    Incorrect on your third point. The Irish Coastguard are the agency responsible for monitoring of all vessels within the EEZ - so says the Minister for Defence and Foreign Affairs and European Maritime Safety Agency.

    Written answers
    Tuesday, 3 November 2020
    Department of Defence

    676. Deputy Catherine Connolly asked the Minister for Defence if a report was undertaken in relation to the surveillance operation of a ship (details supplied) blown on to the coast of County Cork in February 2020; if not, his plans to undertake such a report; if so, if he will provide a copy of the report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32582/20]

    Minister for Defence (Deputy Simon Coveney):

    The Irish Coast Guard has overall responsibility for Ireland's system of marine communications and surveillance in Ireland's Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).

    I understand that the Marine Casualty Investigation Board, which is a statutory independent body, is carrying out an investigation into the grounding of the vessel in Cork earlier this year.

    https://debatesarchive.oireachtas.ie...0114#WRMM03200




    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2...en/print#sec16

    18.— (1) A sea-fisheries protection officer, for the purposes of enforcing the Sea-Fisheries Acts 2003 and 2006 or a Community Regulation with respect to any sea-fishing boat within a port in the State, the exclusive fishery limits or (subject to Community law or international law) outside those limits, may—

    (a) if the boat is underway, order it to be stopped or be manoeuvred as directed for the purposes of identification or of allowing the officer to go on board it,

    (b) board the boat,

    (c) require the owner, master or member of the crew of the boat to produce the certificates of registry, licences, authorisations, logbooks or other records relating to the boat or any fishing gear or equipment thereon, the crew or any member of the crew, which are in his or her possession or control, and inspect and take extracts from or copies of them,

    (d) require the master of the boat to give an explanation concerning the boat or any fishing gear or equipment on it or concerning the boat’s fishing activity and the certificates, licences, authorisations, logbooks, or other records relating to it,

    (e) inspect the satellite-tracking device and any other positioning equipment on the boat and require the owner, master or member of the crew of the boat to demonstrate the operation of that equipment, for the purposes of verifying whether that equipment is operated properly, has not been tampered with or otherwise modified or interfered with and is protected against improper use,

    (f) search the boat (including any package, hold, tank, container or boat or other craft on board),

    (g) request and take the name and address of any person on board the boat,

    (h) request co-operation and assistance from the master or crew of the boat in relation to the inspection, examination and detention of the boat or any fishing gear, equipment or sea-fish on it,

    (i) if he or she reasonably suspects that there has been a contravention by any person on board the boat of this Part, without summons, warrant or other process—

    (i) if the boat is not in a port, take or instruct that the boat and all persons on board be taken to port or order the master of the boat to take the boat directly to a specified port, and pending the taking of the steps required by section 20 or 21 , as may be appropriate, detain the boat and the persons on board, or

    (ii) if the boat is in a port, detain the boat and the persons on board at the port or take it and them to a more convenient port and there detain it and them, pending (in either case) the taking of those steps.

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  31. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TangoSierra View Post
    Incorrect on your first point in terms of SFPA jurisdiction. (see Act below)

    I'll plead the 5th on your second point.

    Incorrect on your third point. The Irish Coastguard are the agency responsible for monitoring of all vessels within the EEZ - so says the Minister for Defence and Foreign Affairs and European Maritime Safety Agency.







    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2...en/print#sec16

    18.— (1) A sea-fisheries protection officer, for the purposes of enforcing the Sea-Fisheries Acts 2003 and 2006 or a Community Regulation with respect to any sea-fishing boat within a port in the State, the exclusive fishery limits or (subject to Community law or international law) outside those limits, may—

    (a) if the boat is underway, order it to be stopped or be manoeuvred as directed for the purposes of identification or of allowing the officer to go on board it,

    (b) board the boat,

    (c) require the owner, master or member of the crew of the boat to produce the certificates of registry, licences, authorisations, logbooks or other records relating to the boat or any fishing gear or equipment thereon, the crew or any member of the crew, which are in his or her possession or control, and inspect and take extracts from or copies of them,

    (d) require the master of the boat to give an explanation concerning the boat or any fishing gear or equipment on it or concerning the boat’s fishing activity and the certificates, licences, authorisations, logbooks, or other records relating to it,

    (e) inspect the satellite-tracking device and any other positioning equipment on the boat and require the owner, master or member of the crew of the boat to demonstrate the operation of that equipment, for the purposes of verifying whether that equipment is operated properly, has not been tampered with or otherwise modified or interfered with and is protected against improper use,

    (f) search the boat (including any package, hold, tank, container or boat or other craft on board),

    (g) request and take the name and address of any person on board the boat,

    (h) request co-operation and assistance from the master or crew of the boat in relation to the inspection, examination and detention of the boat or any fishing gear, equipment or sea-fish on it,

    (i) if he or she reasonably suspects that there has been a contravention by any person on board the boat of this Part, without summons, warrant or other process—

    (i) if the boat is not in a port, take or instruct that the boat and all persons on board be taken to port or order the master of the boat to take the boat directly to a specified port, and pending the taking of the steps required by section 20 or 21 , as may be appropriate, detain the boat and the persons on board, or

    (ii) if the boat is in a port, detain the boat and the persons on board at the port or take it and them to a more convenient port and there detain it and them, pending (in either case) the taking of those steps.
    The SFPA has duties as assigned to it by Government and they are included in the maritime work pile which also has the duties of the CGA and Maritime Rescue and the communications associated with that, by it's 24/7 watchkeeping Branch. The SFPA communications task can only be that attached to Fisheries such as the FMC. The SFPA do not go to sea as their function but assign that to the NS by Service Agreement.
    A sea fishery protection officer is an assigned member of the crew of a ship, Government owned, whose commanding officer is commissioned and listed in the appropriate gazette for commissioned officers. The protection at sea is provided by NS on behalf of the SFPA while the latter carry out shore inspections and advise whether a detention will become an arrest with Court proceedings. All must have some connection with EU rules and regulations.

  32. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The SFPA has duties as assigned to it by Government and they are included in the maritime work pile which also has the duties of the CGA and Maritime Rescue and the communications associated with that, by it's 24/7 watchkeeping Branch. The SFPA communications task can only be that attached to Fisheries such as the FMC. The SFPA do not go to sea as their function but assign that to the NS by Service Agreement.
    A sea fishery protection officer is an assigned member of the crew of a ship, Government owned, whose commanding officer is commissioned and listed in the appropriate gazette for commissioned officers. The protection at sea is provided by NS on behalf of the SFPA while the latter carry out shore inspections and advise whether a detention will become an arrest with Court proceedings. All must have some connection with EU rules and regulations.
    As a point of clarification any of the following can be a Sea Fishery Protection officer
    -- a member of the relevant Department dealing with Fisheries.
    -- a temporary assistant to a shore based officer
    -- a member of the defence forces of not less then Leading hand, serving aboard an active ship
    --a member of the Garda Siochana
    -- a Customs Officer.
    However only the defence Force members are at sea.

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  34. #47
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    Customs are at sea on cutters and have boats on the back.
    SFPA can be embarked onboard, navy, customs or lundy boat to carry out inspections. That's on the websites.

  35. #48
    The Auld Fella A/TEL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    Customs are at sea on cutters and have boats on the back.
    SFPA can be embarked onboard, navy, customs or lundy boat to carry out inspections. That's on the websites.
    The problem with the Customs Cutters is that they are part time and rarely at sea.

    The "crews" main role is normal custom roles.

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  37. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by A/TEL View Post
    The problem with the Customs Cutters is that they are part time and rarely at sea.

    The "crews" main role is normal custom roles.
    I went through a PQ with a former colleague of yours some years ago, which asked how much was spent on fuel in a 12 month period. Based on the fuel spend alone, he calculated, given the type of engines in use, knowing their normal burn rate and allowing for the fact that when at berth the Cutters use shore supply, both vessels did an average of 30 full days at sea in a calendar year.
    That's not to say the unit wasn't active, they are well known at ports and marinas, it's just the cutters aren't always with them.
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  39. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by batterysgt View Post
    Customs are at sea on cutters and have boats on the back.
    SFPA can be embarked onboard, navy, customs or lundy boat to carry out inspections. That's on the websites.
    NOT really at sea----like for three weeks or so? SFPA can certainly be deployed as you say. I wonder how many deep-sea FV's has Lundy Sentinel detained and brought into port to be arrested. What port and what jurisdiction. I think they only map infringements and tell Daddy( Maybe Mammy) in Brussels.
    In days gone by when we were involved on Salmon patrols, because Salmon is classified as a river fish the Naval vessels used to board with a garda and sometimes a customs officer to make it legal.

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