Commission on the Defence Forces - Reserve Discussion

[GoneToTheCanner]

[QUOTE=na grohmiti;484344]Ah, that changes it a bit, you want to utilise "skilled" reservists, who may already have had training on type. I know many years back I was offered casual work changing seat pitch on certain airliners. (working with suitably qualified technician). Mentioned it to an Aero Engineer friend, who almost had a stroke on the spot at the idea of some randomer(with unrelated aero tech skills) working on any part of the fuselage, supervised or not. As you know airside is not a place for those who don't know what's going on.


Some of what has come to pass with regard to "skilled" or "trained" personnel, working on airliners, would make your hair curl. The race to the bottom in MRO airliner maintenance has slashed training to the minimum and some of the people that have been given qualifications are really bad. certain elements of the regulatory authorities have looked the other way, as they are more concerned about collecting fees than keeping a tight hand on the tiller, so to speak.

but that's thread drift. When a DF is so reduced in it's manpower element that it takes the entirety of nearly 10,000 people to sustain a fifth of that on overseas duties alone,then it is clearly time to generate a genuinely functional Reserve that actually works. Either use them or kill them off.

[trellheim]

Either use them or kill them off.

Amen to that. Having rural centres is the tail wagging the dog

[Flamingo]

My view is that the local militia idea (LDF) of a "outposts in large towns " reserve is not required. There is no place for it in the white paper and no real need for it in the defence community. The one and only time is Paddy's Day for flag parties and maybe a couple of other marching bodies during the year.

Before someone comes in and tells me RDF are doing some duties I know well they are in the Army but not in the other branches , and if you've been around for a while the duties are only temporary. There's also no real call for stevedore capacity * strong backs * cos you can buy it in faster

Specialists are what's required and it has to be major centres only where the specialists are. My view : Medics, IT, transport for the surge capacity, NSR retained, and an AC reserve be created with actual techs on it. ( legislation is there for it on the books already) but 2012 reorg and empire building put paid to the last trial

To be clear : kill all the other reserves but those - we're at such a low level its easy to do now. 2005 and 2012 reorgs sucked balls but they proved we could go into a new world . However neither reorg fixed the systemic problems.

A force that is never used properly will wither and die. The reserve has never in my time been used at all or mobilized.

Sorry, disliked in error, fat fingers and a sensitive touch screen. I was just swiping up, honest

[na grohmiti]

Amen to that. Having rural centres is the tail wagging the dog

You keep saying that, I'll keep saying you are wrong.
If done differently it can be a huge advantage.

[Auldsod]

You keep saying that, I'll keep saying you are wrong.
If done differently it can be a huge advantage.

Personally I think the idea of rural centres would only work if the RDF could be made a success and possibly even increase in establishment.

Any reserve unit with it's own location should be of at least company size. I don't mean company size on paper but barely getting more than a platoon of reservists on the books - I mean genuinely being capable of reaching those numbers.

I wouldn't see the point of a reserve centre operating out in west Cork facilitating 15-20 members assuming they all turn up for a night.

[na grohmiti]

Personally I think the idea of rural centres would only work if the RDF could be made a success and possibly even increase in establishment.

Any reserve unit with it's own location should be of at least company size. I don't mean company size on paper but barely getting more than a platoon of reservists on the books - I mean genuinely being capable of reaching those numbers.

I wouldn't see the point of a reserve centre operating out in west Cork facilitating 15-20 members assuming they all turn up for a night.

Most definitely not. That is not my intention. My idea is more to have an address locally where the recruits for that area could respond, rather than a full time manned location (or even training room). Some seem to be getting bogged down on the idea of local centres of the past. Usually a glorified garden shed with a car park out front.
That is not what I am talking about. My idea is an address, be it shop window or office which is a local point of contact for a potential recruit. Sign on the window saying "want to join, ring this (local) number or call here on particular time when office will be manned (preferably by reserve personnel from the area)". The state already rents offices and buildings in most towns, you just want use of a few square feet of it, for a few hours a week.
The number at this office is the potential local recruits point of contact, not an anonymous office somewhere in DFTC.

[trellheim]

Rural centres mean unmanned posts.
Rural centers mean off the IT networks ( and thats not going to change for the moment )
Rural centres mean being unable to train except without equipment and not as you would fight
Rural centers mean being away from the regulars and no trust being built
Rural centers mean general service only as impossible to maintain any specialisations so useless for any real needs except "strong backs"

Rural centers mean "FCA" and that's it - a local militia . It was a solution to a problem many years ago and the need has passed. Anyone wanting to serve the colours outside major centers can get all they want in General Service or the cadets, if they want to put their money where their mouth is. In the 2015 WP and the 2019 update the Reserve is largely viewed as a crisis augmenter yet has not been seriously used ever in that role except in early 70s. Rural centers are a sop, the time in the countryside has passed, the State gets no value from the investment ( or rather, the return is negligible for the investment, compared to that in major centers ) .

[na grohmiti]

Read my last post.

[DeV]

Rural centres mean unmanned posts.
Rural centers mean off the IT networks ( and thats not going to change for the moment )
Rural centres mean being unable to train except without equipment and not as you would fight
Rural centers mean being away from the regulars and no trust being built
Rural centers mean general service only as impossible to maintain any specialisations so useless for any real needs except "strong backs"

Rural centers mean "FCA" and that's it - a local militia . It was a solution to a problem many years ago and the need has passed. Anyone wanting to serve the colours outside major centers can get all they want in General Service or the cadets, if they want to put their money where their mouth is. In the 2015 WP and the 2019 update the Reserve is largely viewed as a crisis augmenter yet has not been seriously used ever in that role except in early 70s. Rural centers are a sop, the time in the countryside has passed, the State gets no value from the investment ( or rather, the return is negligible for the investment, compared to that in major centers ) .

Also means a defence organisation without regular access to weapons

[trellheim]

(in response to NG's post)
Still won't work - anyone wanting to join gets all their stuff online now for the age groups that matter, if you're not talking to them online you won't get them. COVID aside even then it still wouldn't matter. I've been following the US model very closely of local recruiting centers for regulars and there's something ( a tiny little bit for a known presence for regular (PDF) recruiting ) but most of the time you need to visit them where they are.

Finally, recruiting Jane Doe in a rural location is useless as a reservist because she has nowhere to parade and its not economical or a worthwhile use of resources to send a transit 60-70 miles round trip. It is therefore counterproductive to even attempt to recruit in such locations.

This is not even a debate. It did matter in the past but new world.

[DeV]

Most definitely not. That is not my intention. My idea is more to have an address locally where the recruits for that area could respond, rather than a full time manned location (or even training room). Some seem to be getting bogged down on the idea of local centres of the past. Usually a glorified garden shed with a car park out front.
That is not what I am talking about. My idea is an address, be it shop window or office which is a local point of contact for a potential recruit. Sign on the window saying "want to join, ring this (local) number or call here on particular time when office will be manned (preferably by reserve personnel from the area)". The state already rents offices and buildings in most towns, you just want use of a few square feet of it, for a few hours a week.
The number at this office is the potential local recruits point of contact, not an anonymous office somewhere in DFTC.

So a recruiting post without a unit?

How about unit open days (so people who may wish to join don’t understand estimate the distances & time involved, a roadshow of sorts (units putting up a display in various towns in the AO during the competition window), local advertising (posters in windows, ads in papers, ads on local radio) etc etc etc

You know what some units already do but most don’t

What is needed is approved Unit specific recruitment on social media with an RDF unit contact who will look after it.



Local recruitment offices would eat up several hundred personnel for little gain and they aren’t going to manned when they are most likely to get callers.

[DeV]

But what if Jane lives in Fermoy but works in Cork then it possibly is feasible

[trellheim]

But what if Jane lives in Fermoy but works in Cork then it possibly is feasible

Then recruit her in Cork, where she'll parade. No point in false impressions. She's got a smartphone.


The last 3 open days we ran had a miniscule return rate when viewed at the end of the funnel "converted into attested recruits" , pre-COVID. They don't work any more.

Its 2021 not 1961. Service to the state should be where its' needed not otherwise.

[na grohmiti]

(in response to NG's post)
Still won't work - anyone wanting to join gets all their stuff online now for the age groups that matter, if you're not talking to them online you won't get them. COVID aside even then it still wouldn't matter. I've been following the US model very closely of local recruiting centers for regulars and there's something ( a tiny little bit for a known presence for regular (PDF) recruiting ) but most of the time you need to visit them where they are.

Finally, recruiting Jane Doe in a rural location is useless as a reservist because she has nowhere to parade and its not economical or a worthwhile use of resources to send a transit 60-70 miles round trip. It is therefore counterproductive to even attempt to recruit in such locations.

This is not even a debate. It did matter in the past but new world.

So just exclude the majority of the population so because they don't live within a commute from a Manned post? Rename the reserve CFO. City Folk only!

[na grohmiti]

Then recruit her in Cork, where she'll parade. No point in false impressions. She's got a smartphone.


The last 3 open days we ran had a miniscule return rate when viewed at the end of the funnel "converted into attested recruits" , pre-COVID. They don't work any more.

Its 2021 not 1961. Service to the state should be where its' needed not otherwise.

I'm going to say you are wrong, and not only are you wrong, you are also blinkered by your own units failed experience, in one of the smallest counties in Ireland, which does not reflect the experience elsewhere. You have seen one word in most of my posts in this thread and dismissed them based on that alone. In fact, your own opinion is so entrenched you are actively ignoring the content of my posts. There is a crisis of recruitment in the Reserve and the Defence forces. Social media isn't working, anyone with half a brain has already deleted facebook, whatsapp is for jokes, instagram is for sharing photos of your lunch, twitter is for those who don't read newspapers, and I can't see the CoS doing a dance on Tic-Tock any time soon. You probably have already stopped reading this response already. Indeed if I decided to words about mix local centre reserve county training recruitment experience you won't even notice, proving my point.
If local RECRUITING OFFICES (not local centres, that would set Trell off on another rant) are a non runner then what is the solution to recruit those from outside the catchment area of one of the ever decreasing fully manned posts?

[trellheim]

So just exclude the majority of the population so because they don't live within a commute from a Manned post? Rename the reserve CFO. City Folk only!

meh like I said service must be where the State needs it. Also if I recall the majority of the population do live within range of a manned post.

[trellheim]

IRT your point above

There is a crisis of recruitment in the Reserve and the Defence forces

no recruitment crisis in the PDF, its a retention crisis due to very well known causes. PDF recruitment always over-subscribed without any requirement for local centres with plenty of faces from rural locations. I'm ending this contribution here - it isn't a debate.

[na grohmiti]

it isn't a debate.

You are correct there. Point proven.

[DeV]

There absolutely isn’t a recruitment crisis in the DF

Most of the issues with RDF recruitment can be solved by serving RDF personnel. There was 6,000 applications to join between Sept 2015 and Dec 2016. If memory serves the actual attestations were around 350. I believe the numbers applying are now down to around 1,000. Why? Because in a lot of cases they didn’t hear anything for months later.

If retention had ever been addressed pre 2013, the RDF wouldn’t be in the state it is now.

[DeV]

Let’s also remember that there are 16 AR subunits and 1 NSR unit outside occupied posts, like the rest of the RDF they don’t have many personnel either

[Auldsod]

The romantic part of me agrees with 'na grohmiti' here and the image of a local young lad or girl joining up in their local small town or even village. It is an appealing vision. Links to the local community and everyone has an opportunity to join. There really is a lot to like about the idea.

However, the realist part of me agrees with ‘trellheim’ and realises that these outposts even if they are for recruitment purposes only, are useless from a training point of view and stink of FCA and hobbyism rather true citizen soldiery. The solution for getting more numbers in the door isn't looking for a bricks and mortar point of recruitment in each locality where someone can turn up on a parade night and sign up. We all know most of those left shortly after their 3* star training anyway. Also, young people are more likely to engage digitally initially now anyway and would probably rather make their initial contact with their smartphone than blindly turning up on a Tuesday/Wednesday night.

I think the RDF needs to look for the right kind of recruit now and that's why some modicum of reward needs to be there. The private who won't go anywhere unless he can grab transport just down the road is unreliable. That means we need to operate in urban environments co-located with the PDF (as is largely done now) and joiners need to realise that you are giving up time to provide the state some service. This isn't a free to join paid activity club. That probably means those from rural areas will need to have their own transport and pay for their own fuel to get to the barracks week in week out. Yes, it may make it more difficult for someone to casually join but you get someone who shows commitment by driving 45 min each way once a week. Being honest, you could be longer on a bus if you are getting a bus to parade in one of the cities anyway.... Yes, this is disadvantaging the lad with no car who lives far from a barracks but the goal of the RDF is to provide a reserve for the DF, not to provide him with an activity close to home.

That's the model the Brits and the yanks have for their units not located in large cities.

Now back to one of my previous points, this commitment can be rewarded by paying for all activities including parade nights with a quarters day's pay. A Corporal will get roughly a tenner after tax (assuming 40%) for turning up once a week. This would cover his/her diesel at least. A college age 3* gets €15 (assuming they have no part time job and below tax threshold) which probably still pays for 6 cans of cheap pi*s and a bag of chips.

In short, we need to attract people who are willing to give up their time and yes, potentially get screwed over by the system every now and then all because they want to provide some service to the State. On the flip side it could be incentivised by more pay (bet it would cost only a few 100k if we got the numbers in) and getting to perform some fulfilling, challenging and often very fun training.

[trellheim]

Now back to one of my previous points, this commitment can be rewarded by paying for all activities including parade nights with a quarters day's pay. A Corporal will get roughly a tenner after tax (assuming 40%) for turning up once a week. This would cover his/her diesel at least. A college age 3* gets €15 (assuming they have no part time job and below tax threshold) which probably still pays for 6 cans of cheap pi*s and a bag of chips.

In short, we need to attract people who are willing to give up their time and yes, potentially get screwed over by the system every now and then all because they want to provide some service to the State. On the flip side it could be incentivised by more pay (bet it would cost only a few 100k if we got the numbers in) and getting to perform some fulfilling, challenging and often very fun training

It is technically possible ( never been denied) that you can claim travelling expenses to RDF training against tax, since the Gratuity has been abolished.

[Auldsod]

There absolutely isn’t a recruitment crisis in the DF

Most of the issues with RDF recruitment can be solved by serving RDF personnel. There was 6,000 applications to join between Sept 2015 and Dec 2016. If memory serves the actual attestations were around 350. I believe the numbers applying are now down to around 1,000. Why? Because in a lot of cases they didn’t hear anything for months later.

If retention had ever been addressed pre 2013, the RDF wouldn’t be in the state it is now.

I agree with your point on one level and I do think that putting the power to recruit back with diligent RDF personnel using an open door recruitment policy would greatly increase numbers being invited to fitness tests and interviews.

In my experience and I'm assuming this can be corroborated by the experiences of those in other units - a very large proportion of those who are contacted and commit to turning up for a fitness test don't show. I've experienced fitness testing where numerous potential recruits said they'd show and not one turned up.

Also, even when you do get potential recruits on site, a large proportion fail the recruit fitness test.

I wasn't involved in the 90s and early 00s but would the FCA's recruitment have been as strong if the same initial fitness test was rigorously applied then?
All I’m saying is that a thousand plus application probably still means only a few hundred attestations at most even with RDF led recruiting and assuming better efficiency.

[Auldsod]

It is technically possible ( never been denied) that you can claim travelling expenses to RDF training against tax, since the Gratuity has been abolished.

I'm intrigued to know how though?

My understanding that this would be true if you were in a trade and you could write off the transport expenses (diesel, etc) off against the revenue from said trade. Usually the vehicle used for trading is either a seperate asset or a percentage of a share work/domestic vehicle is allocated to private and work use (within revenue guidelines).

I'd consider RDF service to be more akin to PAYE work so it shouldn't be possible. I'm a PAYE worker and I can't claim my travelling expenses commuting to work against my tax.

I do agree that there could be a way of tax incentivising the RDF though but not the above. Travel expenses could be difficult to prove to revenue if you're not using public transport.

[Bravo20]

I am afraid you are incorrect Trelheim, there is numerous tax case law to support Revenue's position that the cost of travel to and from your place of work is not a tax deductible expense.