Commission on the Defence Forces - Reserve Discussion

[ancientmariner]

In his RTE interview last week he clearly called out Tech Enabled Defence bolstered by the RDF. Thats not the same as saying retain the RDF in its current form.



Moving on we've had at least in the last 21+ years

2000 RDFRIB
2000 White Paper
2005 Reorg
2008 Integrated Reserve
2012 Reorg
Bord Snip ( Cutting the Grat really helped numbers).
2015 White Paper
2019 White Paper Update

------------------------------------------

All have played with the dials but none have actually done anything . Numbers, apart from a tiny couple of jumps, have been on a tremendous slide since.
Commission on the Future for Defence

Following the 2019 White Paper on Defence we now have the COMMISSION on DEFENCE 2020, but there is also another oversight body made up of Civil Servants with an input from a member of the GS ( A/COS Supply ) who are running an on-going housekeeping unit described as an EQUIPMENT DEVELOPMENT PLAN. There is a lot of expansionary wording and intention to develop but all is tempered by " funding" and financial limitations. The real path to progress is a timescale Budget and trust a Defence uniformed team to develop and update those sections of the Defence Forces that need it. A brief look at the EDP doc indicates that it is overegging aspects and might be creating a false impression of capabilities. The Multibeam Sonar is not a target tracking sonar but an Echo Sounder used for mapping the sea bed. All ships by law are required to carry an echo sounder for verifying Depth.

[EUFighter]

2020 was a year that threw us many challenges some of which we are still dealing with, but should we now take a step back and look how things might improve in the future? Could for example there be a greater role and co-operation with Civil Defence ? When we look at many of the taskings that the PDF & RDF are giving the military nature is often absent. Take for example something which most will have forgotten about; the explosion in Beirut during the summer. There was a need for immediate aid (some UNIFIL troops did support) and many countries contributed "first responders" and field hospitals. In an ideal world we might have sent engineers, army medics and items like field hospitals. Other countries did and often the personnel were from their voluntary organisations similar to our Civil Defence.

Might it be an ideas for certain Corps like Engineering, Medical, CIS etc to be more liked to CD, that for non-military tasking they be more involved. That DF can call upon that resource in case of HADR tasking for example?

[A/TEL]

NSR units are units (as defined by DFR R5) (as opposed to sub-units)

They are legally units under Shore Ops

Yes apologies, units similar to NS ships under Flotilla in Ops Command.

SO NSR is a NS Lt Cdr who in turn reports to OC Shore Ops.

[DeV]

2020 was a year that threw us many challenges some of which we are still dealing with, but should we now take a step back and look how things might improve in the future? Could for example there be a greater role and co-operation with Civil Defence ? When we look at many of the taskings that the PDF & RDF are giving the military nature is often absent. Take for example something which most will have forgotten about; the explosion in Beirut during the summer. There was a need for immediate aid (some UNIFIL troops did support) and many countries contributed "first responders" and field hospitals. In an ideal world we might have sent engineers, army medics and items like field hospitals. Other countries did and often the personnel were from their voluntary organisations similar to our Civil Defence.

Might it be an ideas for certain Corps like Engineering, Medical, CIS etc to be more liked to CD, that for non-military tasking they be more involved. That DF can call upon that resource in case of HADR tasking for example?

The DF have done it before and the legislation supports it

The DF already has much useful equipment for some HADR work.

The DF lacks some key enablers - Field Hospital, MRV and tactical airlifters for example

What the DF lacks is sufficient personnel (medical especially and that is as much an establishment problem as a strength problem).



IMHO CD needs to be more centralised rather than decentralised to Local Authorities. One of the few “quangos” that was actually killed off by An Bord Snip Nua was the Civil Defence Board and that role went back to DoD. It had brought on CD leaps and bounds. DoD were in charge when the fiasco over PHECC happened. I wouldn’t see any issue with CD being deployed overseas to get around it could be seconded to Irish Aid under Rapid Response initiative.

[apod]

The RDF could probably be used for some taskings to help take pressure off.
Ive done a stint at the Aviva last year and wouldnt mind doing a couple of duties to let the people who are flat out have a breather.
But my BN doesnt seem to want to use us for anything

Our AR Colleagues ARE being used and have been since this started.We have AR pers on duty nearly every day of the week(O/O yesterday was AR. Gd Comd today is AR for example) plus we have used them to make up the numbers on nearly all Internal Exercises(Rec Pln TRRs, both as Enemy AND mixed in with the Students as Exercise troops) and most external ones too( Cadet School/IWW/NCOTW/BTC TRR's). Our AR guys and Gals are helping out with Covid tasks such as contact tracing in mixed PDF/AR Teams
with the ratio being 80% AR to 20% PDF with an AR Officer OIC.

In short our AR guys have been magnificent and I would go so far as to say that without them we couldn't have kept going last year(and this year so far). I would literally grow out of anyone who disrespected our AR people if they did it on front of me.Simple as.

Of course that's not what I believe. You should know me better than that. It may be 10 years since I wore a uniform, but I pass a working barracks daily, and it is clear to all that the phrase "do more with less" is being tested to the absolute by the DF.
However, my profession is ridiculed on an almost daily basis on this site and you don't see me getting upset.
Everyone in the employ of the state is getting shit on at present. Normal rules and conditions of service have gone out the window without discussion, as normal chain of command goes out the window.
But we are all links in the chain. Without my organisation giving 150%, your organisation and the state would soon cease to function. Without your organisation meeting themselves coming off duty, mine would cease to function.
Apologies if we try to see the lighter side now and again. I didn't realise that was also not permitted during the lickdown.

Jesus bud.Are you apologising or not? You say that's not what you believe so why say it?? It's not funny.It IS Flippant,which Flamingo has acknowledged and apologised for,and to the best of my knowledge I haven't disrespected your Job and how It is done. Not looking to get into a pissing match.I am too tired, but if you really DID see what is going on inside the Barracks wall you would realise that I am not being oversensitive but have every right to expect a retraction on behalf of the lads and lasses who are giving so much for f**k all thanks and even less money.

Genuinely.You need to withdraw the comment without equivocation.As has been said before.Words Matter.

[na grohmiti]

Our AR Colleagues ARE being used and have been since this started.We have AR pers on duty nearly every day of the week(O/O yesterday was AR. Gd Comd today is AR for example) plus we have used them to make up the numbers on nearly all Internal Exercises(Rec Pln TRRs, both as Enemy AND mixed in with the Students as Exercise troops) and most external ones too( Cadet School/IWW/NCOTW/BTC TRR's). Our AR guys and Gals are helping out with Covid tasks such as contact tracing in mixed PDF/AR Teams
with the ratio being 80% AR to 20% PDF with an AR Officer OIC.

In short our AR guys have been magnificent and I would go so far as to say that without them we couldn't have kept going last year(and this year so far). I would literally grow out of anyone who disrespected our AR people if they did it on front of me.Simple as.



Jesus bud.Are you apologising or not? You say that's not what you believe so why say it?? It's not funny.It IS Flippant,which Flamingo has acknowledged and apologised for,and to the best of my knowledge I haven't disrespected your Job and how It is done. Not looking to get into a pissing match.I am too tired, but if you really DID see what is going on inside the Barracks wall you would realise that I am not being oversensitive but have every right to expect a retraction on behalf of the lads and lasses who are giving so much for f**k all thanks and even less money.

Genuinely.You need to withdraw the comment without equivocation.As has been said before.Words Matter.

Consider it withdrawn. It was made in jest, using an ironic stereotype. I will delete the post if you wish.
Can I assume there will be an embargo on "Lazy civil servant" statements also?

[batterysgt]

AR are not in receipt of f**k all when they are on FTT and you should know that. Two days pay for a 24hr duty plus rest off, not bad if your a capt get about €210 before tax. The same rank PDF gets less for a Sunday duty but does get a rest off. Yes the AR does not get the SDA allowance. Any AR involved in covid-19 related tasks are in receipt of FTT pay + 10% and covid-19 payment.
NSR got FTT + 10% and Patrol duty allowance and some got covid-19 allowance.some of those guys who I know did over 55days onboard ships, which was excellent but mostly because they were out of work or college. JTF AR are in receipt of FTT +10% and covid-19 payment daily, thats a handy lump for a Lt Col on a Sat, honestly great commitment from all those Reservists, who have given time in uniform. But it's not for free.

But they are using there free time to help.

[DeV]

If people are available and have the opportunity fair play to them

[apod]

AR are not in receipt of f**k all when they are on FTT and you should know that. Two days pay for a 24hr duty plus rest off, not bad if your a capt get about €210 before tax. The same rank PDF gets less for a Sunday duty but does get a rest off. Yes the AR does not get the SDA allowance. Any AR involved in covid-19 related tasks are in receipt of FTT pay + 10% and covid-19 payment.
NSR got FTT + 10% and Patrol duty allowance and some got covid-19 allowance.some of those guys who I know did over 55days onboard ships, which was excellent but mostly because they were out of work or college. JTF AR are in receipt of FTT +10% and covid-19 payment daily, thats a handy lump for a Lt Col on a Sat, honestly great commitment from all those Reservists, who have given time in uniform. But it's not for free.

But they are using there free time to help.

If you bothered to read the second part of my post properly you would see I was not referring to the AR. I was referring to the PDF. But thanks for that.

PS: No need for the maths lesson.I know EXACTLY what AR members get for doing both Regimental and ATCA duties.Cheers.

[apod]

Consider it withdrawn. It was made in jest, using an ironic stereotype. I will delete the post if you wish.
Can I assume there will be an embargo on "Lazy civil servant" statements also?

Thank you. Takes a big man to admit when they are wrong. At least on my part I will not stand over comments like you mentioned above. No such thing these days.

[na grohmiti]

I find i am wrong more often, as I get older.

[koppiteal]

Im delighted that at least some units are using their RDF elements.
We were asked months ago to give dates when we could do duties and that was the last we heard about it.
Some of the people are starting to ask whats the point if at the time when resources are stretched we dont asked to give a dig out

[batterysgt]

Keeping sending to your one up PDF, in writing, members are willing to commit time and when. You might get a reply.

[ancientmariner]

That's correct and the 18 are listed above already up-thread. Note that these were submissions on the Terms of Reference .

I note that the TOR was already set by Government to the COD and maybe cannot be construed as subject to submission or alteration. There is an interesting proposal on the RDF " to make it a more attractive Option".

[Truck Driver]

I note that the TOR was already set by Government to the COD and maybe cannot be construed as subject to submission or alteration. There is an interesting proposal on the RDF " to make it a more attractive Option".

You have me curious... where can I see this?

[ancientmariner]

You have me curious... where can I see this?

Go on the web and type in Terms of Reference, Commission on Defence and add gov.ie.

[DeV]

I note that the TOR was already set by Government to the COD and maybe cannot be construed as subject to submission or alteration. There is an interesting proposal on the RDF " to make it a more attractive Option".

The consultations on the TORs closed a while ago

You have me curious... where can I see this?

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/b6...-of-reference/

[Truck Driver]

The consultations on the TORs closed a while ago




https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/b6...-of-reference/

But no mention of WHAT these "... recommendations to better leverage the capabilities of the RDF in their supports to the PDF and to make service in the RDF a more attractive option..." are, then?

[Auldsod]

But no mention of WHAT these "... recommendations to better leverage the capabilities of the RDF in their supports to the PDF and to make service in the RDF a more attractive option..." are, then?

I guess that's what the Commission is come back with.

I just hope they actually make some very specific recommendations for the Reserve beyond the broad and bland such as:

- More interesting and challenging training
- Further leveraging of specialist skills
- More integration of PDF

We all know recommendations like the above look and sound good on a report but are so vague as to be useless.

A more attractive option must mean

- Rights for those in employment with regards leave.
- Return of the gratuity or similar.
- Overseas (most likely limited).
- More resourcing,

[trellheim]

Kill the reserve as it is - something else is needed . At the level it is at, can anyone come up with a viable plan to return to establishment numbers within 3 years or less thats not cuckoo crazy ?

Further, at the moment it is helping the Department, because we are helping the PDF and so, if we were not there, political pressure on the department would be far more. Look at what PDF have said even here about them having large issues if we were not helping.


Yes I know its radical

[Auldsod]

Kill the reserve as it is - something else is needed . At the level it is at, can anyone come up with a viable plan to return to establishment numbers within 3 years or less thats not cuckoo crazy ?

Further, at the moment it is helping the Department, because we are helping the PDF and so, if we were not there, political pressure on the department would be far more. Look at what PDF have said even here about them having large issues if we were not helping.


Yes I know its radical

I think there is a whole lot of merit in what you are proposing but I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here.

I'd worry that there would be a large drain of expertise and knowledge from the committed few who remain in the current rump organisation if we killed the reserve as is.

If the reset button was hit, would you rejoin in the morning if that meant relinquishing your commission and at least initially going back down to Private? Killing and restarting should be total.

[trellheim]

I think there is a whole lot of merit in what you are proposing but I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here.

I'd worry that there would be a large drain of expertise and knowledge from the committed few who remain in the current rump organisation if we killed the reserve as is.

If the reset button was hit, would you rejoin in the morning if that meant relinquishing your commission and at least initially going back down to Private? Killing and restarting should be total.

Great question. Dodge it by saying I'd be over-age to join. What expertise is worth holding on to though that can't be recruited off the street ? Medical, IT and the like - what is required - easily found out there.

[DeV]

Great question. Dodge it by saying I'd be over-age to join. What expertise is worth holding on to though that can't be recruited off the street ? Medical, IT and the like - what is required - easily found out there.

The DF isn’t just short of very specialists (eg Cyber etc), they are also short of Corps specialists (eg coach drivers, MOWAG drivers). But they are also short of generalists (ie bodies) and that is even if up to establishment. The DF & DoD now realise that. They just have to treat them correctly.

I noticed in reply to one of the Ministerial questions this week about what the max that could be processed was and no real reply but priority to PDF.... still siloed mentality.... 2/3 RDF into Competitions Section and same at Bde Manpower offices and problem solved

[na grohmiti]

From my viewpoint, the PDF has no shortage of "grunts" to use the colloquialism. The need for a reserve, in modern society is rarely to put more boots on the ground, but more so to put more white coats in labs, more overalls in workshops and machines that go "ping" in the hands of those who know what the "ping" means. A re-imagined first line reserve could provide the necessary extra boots on the ground, and have done the same training and have the same military experience as their full time equivalent. I know a number of veterans (recently departed from PDF) who would jump at the chance to assist the DF in times of crisis, but there is no mechanism to welcome them back, without them losing all their skills gained in military service. The recently departed from service exer is still more than able to do all of the duties currently carried out my the present day reservist, and a lot more than most.
In this regard, press reset, and rebuild, from the top down a specialised 2nd line reserve. Recruit people with specialised civilian skills that will quickly translate to the military world, whether in wartime or peacetime. First get past the reluctance of some corps directors to recognise skills not attained within the Defence Forces. If you operate a teleporter or mobile crane on a building site with the appropriate tickets you shouldn't need to do the full 154 to let you drive one painted green with black and silver numberplates. Fill the Transport, CIS & Engineer units with a reserve of civvy truck & bus drivers, telecomms technicians and heavy plant operators . You'll find their real world skills are probably more up to date than many of those working in the organisation. These are the people the country has needed more of in recent years during times of emergency. Give them all the basik military skills and let them do what they do for a living, only while wearing an FF badge on their forehead.

[Auldsod]

Great question. Dodge it by saying I'd be over-age to join. What expertise is worth holding on to though that can't be recruited off the street ? Medical, IT and the like - what is required - easily found out there.

Haha, even better answer. I'd be overage to rejoin myself.

Personally I think some form of reset would be useful but maybe not a total one as who would resource restarting the organisation? The PDF clearly doesn't have to resource to do it.

May be best keep what you need in their current ranks (but not roles) and possibly use the opportunity for a bit of cull.

Regardless, I don't think we will see anything that drastic from the final report.

The DF isn’t just short of very specialists (eg Cyber etc), they are also short of Corps specialists (eg coach drivers, MOWAG drivers). But they are also short of generalists (ie bodies) and that is even if up to establishment. The DF & DoD now realise that. They just have to treat them correctly.

I noticed in reply to one of the Ministerial questions this week about what the max that could be processed was and no real reply but priority to PDF.... still siloed mentality.... 2/3 RDF into Competitions Section and same at Bde Manpower offices and problem solved

Agree on this point too.

Should the RDF become more of a pool of specialists and manpower similar to the way Royal Navy Reserve and RAF Reserve operate? They do have their own formed units but that's more to facilitate basic level training and administration. Their units aren't deployable but the individual personnel are.

Here is an idea.

- You want to take up a reserve cyber role or as a driver say.
- Join up and complete your recruit training with your local unit. Local unit also ensures you keep up to date on KPIs (range, fitness testing, etc).
- Local unit assists with admin so you can attend courses and training relevant to role.
- Cyber exercises or a driving course completed at national or regional level as required.

Take for example the reserve infantry company based in Limerick.

Repurpose this as a more generalist AR unit. Limerick AR company (similar to how the NSR do it).
Joiners aren't limited to the infantry specialisation but can also provide 'bodies' and support for the co-located PDF unit as required.

(I also accept not all RDF units are co-located with PDF units)