Commission on the Defence Forces - Reserve Discussion

[DeV]

I agree with your point on one level and I do think that putting the power to recruit back with diligent RDF personnel using an open door recruitment policy would greatly increase numbers being invited to fitness tests and interviews.

In my experience and I'm assuming this can be corroborated by the experiences of those in other units - a very large proportion of those who are contacted and commit to turning up for a fitness test don't show. I've experienced fitness testing where numerous potential recruits said they'd show and not one turned up.

Also, even when you do get potential recruits on site, a large proportion fail the recruit fitness test.

I wasn't involved in the 90s and early 00s but would the FCA's recruitment have been as strong if the same initial fitness test was rigorously applied then?
All I’m saying is that a thousand plus application probably still means only a few hundred attestations at most even with RDF led recruiting and assuming better efficiency.

Why was recruitment better ? Because there was FCA outposts in most of the towns in the country, if every subunit got 5 recruits you’d probably get 500 recruits a year.

They also didn’t have to do fitness tests, you could join at 17, etc etc

Absolutely there will be no shows but how much notice, transport provided from Coy HQ (they wanted to join in say Clifden not Galway), etc

RDF need to take ownership. Where they seek it and are let it works.

[apod]

Simple solution to the Parading "problem". Wadi it. Two hours a week is counterproductive. Trying to fit too much into too little time.

One weekend a month.Paid.In a MANNED Bks(No camp guard,access to training facilities,kit etc.)Report on Friday night for kit/accomodation issue etc. Two fulls days proper training. Advertised well in advance at start of year as to the dates to allow for personnel planning.

You could organise pick up points for DF Transport on Friday evening at smaller outlying towns.You make your way there and meet up with other participants.Dropped back to that spot on sunday evening.

More return on the investment,Better training facilities etc.

[Auldsod]

Simple solution to the Parading "problem". Wadi it. Two hours a week is counterproductive. Trying to fit too much into too little time.

One weekend a month.Paid.In a MANNED Bks(No camp guard,access to training facilities,kit etc.)Report on Friday night for kit/accomodation issue etc. Two fulls days proper training. Advertised well in advance at start of year as to the dates to allow for personnel planning.

You could organise pick up points for DF Transport on Friday evening at smaller outlying towns.You make your way there and meet up with other participants.Dropped back to that spot on sunday evening.

More return on the investment,Better training facilities etc.

Doesn't seem like a bad future to me. Requires more commitment but we would be so much more efficient.

Better training and just the benefits of being in a military environment for a whole weekend and all that entails.

Wouldn't suit the tea drinkers though....

[trellheim]

there is numerous tax case law to support Revenue's position that the cost of travel to and from your place of work is not a tax deductible expense

agreed but the State is adamant that the Reserve is not a job !

I've got a PQ in the back somewhere proving this. I'll email you.



Anyway back to the thread the RDF is not usable in its current form except in spite of itself ( pockets of value via some specialisations, and some digouts on duties ) EVEN IF YOU GOT ESTABLISHMENT TO 100% there is still zero political will to use it, zero requirement from the PDF to use it ( apart from crisis manning ) , and fk-all money to fund it. If it got to 100% manning the number of mandays to pay everyone would drop back to seven or so per annum.


WP2015 and White Paper Update 2019 basically kicked the RDF to touch with a list of projects that haven't been actioned in any serious form. This is well known, and i'm only using it to bolster my argument re no-one really cares.

Any superficial fixes ( R5 amendment moving deckchairs on the titanic) will do nothing to halt the decline. We've showed this with the numbers thread - the decline is almost unstoppable.

At the moment is the best time to stop things are so low - it can't/shouldn't continue . There is tremendous need for Medics, AC and NSR specialists, and the whole high-tech side and its time to reinvent completely from the ground up. Ditch the whole lot.

Is anyone seriously thinking we can recruit, man the numbers to establishment, and keep it as-is within any reasonable timeframe ? ( in a post-COVID world ) . If you don't think so and want to keep the current vision, it's condemning us to half-life for no purpose.

[batterysgt]

There are to many places where total RDF controlled recruitment can end up going very badly.
GDPR is just one of them.
There are very diligent people in the RDF, just not enough to ensure SOPs are properly followed. Some examples from my experience in recruitment and "hearsay" from other units /formations.
List of applicants details found left in a different office.Name, address, email, dob, pps, mob no etc.
Minor Medical information left in wrong office or out on desk.
Applicants getting calls from RLOs and discussing their medical issues with them, eyesight, BMI etc.
Misinformation communicated with applicants ie given the wrong date and time for interview, it, med resulting in phone calls asking how they can claim the cost of their travel.
RDF at last minute (that day) ringing in to say sorry, has offered me overtime so cant make it.
All the above have landed PDF in hot water. Imagine you PDF, getting a phone off an applicant, who is questioning how people know about their medical condition and asking for an explanation or I have an email from the recruitment guy saying I was due an interview today but after travelling into the barracks, I was told it's not today sorry.

From what I've seen on this forum in the past, 1ACS and the NSR have it right (or had it right before covid-19)

[na grohmiti]

There are to many places where total RDF controlled recruitment can end up going very badly.
GDPR is just one of them.
There are very diligent people in the RDF, just not enough to ensure SOPs are properly followed. Some examples from my experience in recruitment and "hearsay" from other units /formations.
List of applicants details found left in a different office.Name, address, email, dob, pps, mob no etc.
Minor Medical information left in wrong office or out on desk.
Applicants getting calls from RLOs and discussing their medical issues with them, eyesight, BMI etc.
Misinformation communicated with applicants ie given the wrong date and time for interview, it, med resulting in phone calls asking how they can claim the cost of their travel.
RDF at last minute (that day) ringing in to say sorry, has offered me overtime so cant make it.
All the above have landed PDF in hot water. Imagine you PDF, getting a phone off an applicant, who is questioning how people know about their medical condition and asking for an explanation or I have an email from the recruitment guy saying I was due an interview today but after travelling into the barracks, I was told it's not today sorry.

From what I've seen on this forum in the past, 1ACS and the NSR have it right (or had it right before covid-19)

I saw this with my own eyes. There is a belief that you can't trust just 1 person with gathering this information, so instead a multitude do, and every time the recruit turns up, someone who isn't with the program takes the exact same details again, and keeps them in the same notebook they use on Ex to do their O Group. Officers were the worst for taking the info from the person designated to collect it, walking away with it, and leaving it on a windowsill somewhere after being distracted because it's coffee time. And unsurprisingly person who is responsible for collating said info won't berate officer for being a dope.
It's 15 years or more since I was last involved. All info kept on 1 laptop, used by 1 person. Hard copy kept either by me or Pln Commander, Pln Cdr was only point of contact for medicals/audiograms. (different system to today) Once attested all collated info deleted from laptop and hard copy shredded.
Saw it go wrong during the Reorg in other units where scraps of paper were being used, and lost, and reused, and lost again.

[batterysgt]

All my examples are from recruitment campaigns 2018- to present, all errors were done by RLOs or should I say all those that helped the rlo when he/she could not keep up.

Again there are very diligent people in the RDF but recruitment is a fulltime job.
AR DFTC almost had a fulltime presence in G1 during the campaigns and were monitored by G1 frequently each week.

[GoneToTheCanner]

apart from all that, it shouldn't take a year to process a person into an organisation. That's just dereliction of duty,right there. No civvy organisation would tolerate it.

[DeV]

There are to many places where total RDF controlled recruitment can end up going very badly.
GDPR is just one of them.
There are very diligent people in the RDF, just not enough to ensure SOPs are properly followed. Some examples from my experience in recruitment and "hearsay" from other units /formations.
List of applicants details found left in a different office.Name, address, email, dob, pps, mob no etc.
Minor Medical information left in wrong office or out on desk.
Applicants getting calls from RLOs and discussing their medical issues with them, eyesight, BMI etc.
Misinformation communicated with applicants ie given the wrong date and time for interview, it, med resulting in phone calls asking how they can claim the cost of their travel.
RDF at last minute (that day) ringing in to say sorry, has offered me overtime so cant make it.
All the above have landed PDF in hot water. Imagine you PDF, getting a phone off an applicant, who is questioning how people know about their medical condition and asking for an explanation or I have an email from the recruitment guy saying I was due an interview today but after travelling into the barracks, I was told it's not today sorry.

From what I've seen on this forum in the past, 1ACS and the NSR have it right (or had it right before covid-19)

And all that goes around the candidates friends reducing the pool further.

It’s down to training, responsibility, experience to a degree, resourcing, taking ownership and preparation

Possibly a reason to keep units away from recruitment. A team of RDF (2/3 officers and similar amount of NCOs) in Bde Manpower

[DeV]

apart from all that, it shouldn't take a year to process a person into an organisation. That's just dereliction of duty,right there. No civvy organisation would tolerate it.

In some cases it was approaching 2 years

[DeV]

Simple solution to the Parading "problem". Wadi it. Two hours a week is counterproductive. Trying to fit too much into too little time.

One weekend a month.Paid.In a MANNED Bks(No camp guard,access to training facilities,kit etc.)Report on Friday night for kit/accomodation issue etc. Two fulls days proper training. Advertised well in advance at start of year as to the dates to allow for personnel planning.

You could organise pick up points for DF Transport on Friday evening at smaller outlying towns.You make your way there and meet up with other participants.Dropped back to that spot on sunday evening.

More return on the investment,Better training facilities etc.

Yes and no

The training parades give you the chance to do pre/post event logs & admin. Issue & pack kit etc. Check everything is boxed off for the weekend etc.

You can also fit, 2 x 45 min lessons in which over the course of a training year does add up.

Of course, that if it is used efficiently, if the officer takes up 30 mins with parade, the CQ eventually arrives late and takes 30 mins to issue weapons, the training rooms take 10 mins to March to and then aren’t open.... you’ll be luck to end up with 1x45 min lesson.

To me it depends on the unit some do them well some not so much

[batterysgt]

Agreed it's about planning, the last tens mins of each parade night should be briefing the unit for the following parade nights training. Trainers should be given the training plan and it follows from there.

To many people find it easy to blame everyone else for the fcukups.
Those that put the effort in get the results the others get nothing only a bad name.

[batterysgt]

Anyway this is about the commission not RDF recruitment.

[Auldsod]

agreed but the State is adamant that the Reserve is not a job !

I've got a PQ in the back somewhere proving this. I'll email you.



Anyway back to the thread the RDF is not usable in its current form except in spite of itself ( pockets of value via some specialisations, and some digouts on duties ) EVEN IF YOU GOT ESTABLISHMENT TO 100% there is still zero political will to use it, zero requirement from the PDF to use it ( apart from crisis manning ) , and fk-all money to fund it. If it got to 100% manning the number of mandays to pay everyone would drop back to seven or so per annum.


WP2015 and White Paper Update 2019 basically kicked the RDF to touch with a list of projects that haven't been actioned in any serious form. This is well known, and i'm only using it to bolster my argument re no-one really cares.

Any superficial fixes ( R5 amendment moving deckchairs on the titanic) will do nothing to halt the decline. We've showed this with the numbers thread - the decline is almost unstoppable.

At the moment is the best time to stop things are so low - it can't/shouldn't continue . There is tremendous need for Medics, AC and NSR specialists, and the whole high-tech side and its time to reinvent completely from the ground up. Ditch the whole lot.

Is anyone seriously thinking we can recruit, man the numbers to establishment, and keep it as-is within any reasonable timeframe ? ( in a post-COVID world ) . If you don't think so and want to keep the current vision, it's condemning us to half-life for no purpose.

Could you possibly PM me detail on the PQ? I'm assuming there is a link.

The reserves is not a job and more of an 'office'. You'll notice that with your PRSI class. We don't pay PRSI in most cases.

Now just because the Reserves isn't a job, that doesn't mean that you can all of a sudden write off expenses against it. There are very specifics types of income where you can do that such as rental income, trading income, etc. If revenue doesn't have it up in black and white online in a document, nothing can be claimed.

On the point about restarting the whole RDF. If we end up with yet another nod to 'fixing' the reserve with no major changes and funding, you may be correct. Better not to exist at all than semi functioning on a terminal descent to finally disappearing.

If it was to be restarted, I believe we'd need to include everything in the establishment. Transfer across those who are useful to the organisation without a guarantee of retaining rank or even a commission.

As I said previously I think there are niches the AR could definitely carve out for itself in the areas requiring specialists or for providing additional logistics. There is a port control role for the NSR and there are those with seagoing experience who could be very useful for relief at sea. If getting to that point requires a restart, why not.....

[DeV]

Could you possibly PM me detail on the PQ? I'm assuming there is a link.

The reserves is not a job and more of an 'office'. You'll notice that with your PRSI class. We don't pay PRSI in most cases.

Now just because the Reserves isn't a job, that doesn't mean that you can all of a sudden write off expenses against it. There are very specifics types of income where you can do that such as rental income, trading income, etc. If revenue doesn't have it up in black and white online in a document, nothing can be claimed.

On the point about restarting the whole RDF. If we end up with yet another nod to 'fixing' the reserve with no major changes and funding, you may be correct. Better not to exist at all than semi functioning on a terminal descent to finally disappearing.

If it was to be restarted, I believe we'd need to include everything in the establishment. Transfer across those who are useful to the organisation without a guarantee of retaining rank or even a commission.

As I said previously I think there are niches the AR could definitely carve out for itself in the areas requiring specialists or for providing additional logistics. There is a port control role for the NSR and there are those with seagoing experience who could be very useful for relief at sea. If getting to that point requires a restart, why not.....

RDF on FTT result in employer PRSI

Class J - https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/14...-prsi/#class-c

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/97...class-j-rates/

[Auldsod]

RDF on FTT result in employer PRSI

Class J - https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/14...-prsi/#class-c

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/97...class-j-rates/

Indeed but you'll also note that as we are only on FTT so few days a year, most of our payslips are class M.

[Flamingo]

Just throwing a few ideas out there.

1. Actual recruiting - why is this not done centrally by the same people who handle PDF recruiting (if that's not also central, why not?). Organise medicals / fitness tests etc. in large batches in big barracks. People will be willing to teavel, after all, they will be green and keen, if travel warrents / travel expenses are paid. If it will involve an overnight stay in a sleeping bag in a hall, so what? Gives people a taste of what they will be enterting. If this is considered enough to put people off, are they the people you really want anyway. And above all, the paperwork and processing should be getting done by someone who does that for the day job. They don't have to be dressed in green.

2. Units need to be a minimum size - both for economies of scale, and so people recognise they have joined an organisation, not just a dozen or so people from the local area. It also prevents one or two assholes in the local unit putting everyone off (we all have served with the type). In bigger units it's easier to get numbers for meaningful training, as even if only 50% turn up, when that is 50-60-100 people more can be done than with 10. So a bigger unit in a central barracks would work so much better than penny-packets.

3. Pay travel allowance from registered home address to muster point. People don't mind teaveling if they aren't doing it out of their own pocket. Reserves are there because they want to be, not because the RSM will bollock them. They won't mind the travel if they are expecting it (especially for something meaningful), but they shouldn't have to subsidise the organisation. Concern about people from Donegal joining units in Cork are easily solved - members are allocated to the closest appropriate unit. If this means a specialist travels from Donegal to Cork, so be it, but a PBI three-star could parade in their closest hub, or pay the excess travel themselves if they want to stay with their mates. I wouldn't get too hung up on providing mini-buses to ship people around the whole country, either. If the person can't drive, provide a travel warrent, or refund public transport tickets, run a mini-bus from the receiving train/bus station.

I like Trellhems idea of having more frequent full days or weekends rather than two hours once a week. Thats much easier to fit in around a work/life balance, and if paid, is an incentive (especially if half the pay is not going on petrol / train fare to get there).

Of course, these would involve extra expense and a cultural change. Can somebody just remind me, how many million were handed back over the past few years?

[trellheim]

I like Trellhems idea of having more frequent full days

credit Apod in this thread IIRC but its an obvious winner.

[DeV]

Just throwing a few ideas out there.

1. Actual recruiting - why is this not done centrally by the same people who handle PDF recruiting (if that's not also central, why not?). Organise medicals / fitness tests etc. in large batches in big barracks. People will be willing to teavel, after all, they will be green and keen, if travel warrents / travel expenses are paid. If it will involve an overnight stay in a sleeping bag in a hall, so what? Gives people a taste of what they will be enterting. If this is considered enough to put people off, are they the people you really want anyway. And above all, the paperwork and processing should be getting done by someone who does that for the day job. They don't have to be dressed in green.

It is centralised at Bde level and (PDF) Bde Manpower are in charge has been since around 2013. No expenses (you had to get you GP to sign a form to say you were fit for fitness test, which afaik wasn’t refunded (not sure of current situation)).

The main problem is majority of (very understandable) PDF personnel (Bde Manpower, gym staff, doctors, medics, etc) don’t want to work at the weekend for zero extra pay. In some places in fairness they pull out the stops and it works.

2. Units need to be a minimum size - both for economies of scale, and so people recognise they have joined an organisation, not just a dozen or so people from the local area. It also prevents one or two assholes in the local unit putting everyone off (we all have served with the type). In bigger units it's easier to get numbers for meaningful training, as even if only 50% turn up, when that is 50-60-100 people more can be done than with 10. So a bigger unit in a central barracks would work so much better than penny-packets.

+1

3. Pay travel allowance from registered home address to muster point. People don't mind teaveling if they aren't doing it out of their own pocket. Reserves are there because they want to be, not because the RSM will bollock them. They won't mind the travel if they are expecting it (especially for something meaningful), but they shouldn't have to subsidise the organisation. Concern about people from Donegal joining units in Cork are easily solved - members are allocated to the closest appropriate unit. If this means a specialist travels from Donegal to Cork, so be it, but a PBI three-star could parade in their closest hub, or pay the excess travel themselves if they want to stay with their mates. I wouldn't get too hung up on providing mini-buses to ship people around the whole country, either. If the person can't drive, provide a travel warrent, or refund public transport tickets, run a mini-bus from the receiving train/bus station.

never going to happen and one advantage of RDF is generally that you join the local unit of one that suits you. If you move it’s your choice.

[quoteI like Trellhems idea of having more frequent full days or weekends rather than two hours once a week. Thats much easier to fit in around a work/life balance, and if paid, is an incentive (especially if half the pay is not going on petrol / train fare to get there).

Of course, these would involve extra expense and a cultural change. Can somebody just remind me, how many million were handed back over the past few years?[/QUOTE]

If paid

[trellheim]

never going to happen and one advantage of RDF is generally that you join the local unit of one that suits you. If you move it’s your choice.

which is another reason it all needs burning to the ground - its nothing to do with the "local unit" anymore. Every single sub-unit now ( before we go anywhere else) is part of a PDF unit HQ'd in a manned post NSR being about the only exception for one of their Units.

No expenses (you had to get you GP to sign a form to say you were fit for fitness test, which afaik wasn’t refunded (not sure of current situation)).

This situation is so stupid you have to get the GP register as a DOD supplier , it is all handwaving from D MED who CAN NOT be bothered to deal with reservists who are just as entitled by regulation as PDF to be examined. Is any of that being looked at for the RDF ? No. Its the biggest block to recruiting.

Like I said - burn it all to the ground.

[koppiteal]

Are any RDF units currently training/parading?

[batterysgt]

Parade nights/ field day etc not allowed under level 5. Some RDF in JTF and some driving details to my knowledge.

[trellheim]

Are any RDF units currently training/parading?

All RDF routine activity is on hold due the pandemic. Couple of courses doing a bit on conference calls but that only goes so far.

[batterysgt]

Every single sub-unit now ( before we go anywhere else) is part of a PDF unit HQ'd in a manned post NSR being about the only exception for one of their Units.
3rd Bn have a company based in Waterford so they are the same but for the 45min drive to Kilkenny barracks.

[trellheim]

Every single sub-unit now ( before we go anywhere else) is part of a PDF unit HQ'd in a manned post NSR being about the only exception for one of their Units.
3rd Bn have a company based in Waterford so they are the same but for the 45min drive to Kilkenny barracks.

Yes, for sure. My point was there is no independent units any more since 2012 bar NSR. Everyone reports up into a PDF Unit.