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  1. #1
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    Designated Marksman and Sniper Support Rifle

    RFT for DMR/SSR

    The Defence Forces of Ireland are considering the purchase of a single rifle type to fulfil the operational requirements for Designated Marksman and Sniper Support to replace the existing FN FAL 7.62mm sniper support rifle. The rifle shall share a commonality of features such as calibre, operation system, modes of fire and general functioning. There may be variations in accessories and ergonomics appropriate to the two roles. The DMR/SSR will be expected to remain in service for the next 15 to 20 years and have a proven maintenance and support capability. In the Designated Marksman role the rifle will be deployed by Infantry and Cavalry Units down to Section level. In the Sniper Support role the rifle will be deployed in a sniper pair in support of the Accuracy International .308 AW and .338 SM rifles.

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  3. #2
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodes View Post
    RFT for DMR/SSR
    So a new section level weapon (as well as part of sniper pair) meaning everyone has to cover it in recruit/2-3* training

  4. #3
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    Do the quantities required justify an RFT?
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  5. #4
    Lt Colonel EUFighter's Avatar
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    This could be a easy selection, the HK-417 is already in-service and several variants are available covering the DMR/SSR roles, G28 in German use or the M110A1 in US usage.

  6. #5
    Viking HavocIRL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    So a new section level weapon (as well as part of sniper pair) meaning everyone has to cover it in recruit/2-3* training
    Not necessarily. Could be inf/cav specific to be conducted within a unit like ILSW course. Probably the better way to do it.
    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

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  8. #6
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    Would you get a better weapon if you moved away from the larger makers though? The UKDF L129A1 for example, by Lewis Machine & Tool Co. At its introduction AI Sniper rifle was a surprising choice, the company itself barely having the capacity to produce the quantities required, while still bringing out an awesome sniper rifle.
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  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by HavocIRL View Post
    Not necessarily. Could be inf/cav specific to be conducted within a unit like ILSW course. Probably the better way to do it.
    Does everyone train on the Grenade launcher in 2-3 star training?
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  10. #8
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Does everyone train on the Grenade launcher in 2-3 star training?
    Yes and AT4

  11. #9
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HavocIRL View Post
    Not necessarily. Could be inf/cav specific to be conducted within a unit like ILSW course. Probably the better way to do it.
    True but all recruits are trained on all the other section level wpns

  12. #10
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    In the UK 3 Soldiers per section are trained up on the Sharpshooter rifle but only one carries it. Usually decided by the top three shooters scores on PWT in each section

    Seeing as we don't operate as permanently formed sections or Platoons on Island this could prove problematic to emulate.

    Inf and Cav RECCE Dets are getting them too.

    Trials already conducted. Most of the Rifles mentioned above were tested.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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  14. #11
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    Farewell the coolest variant of the FN ever!

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  16. #12
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    A testament to the rifle that its still in service. If you didn't hit the target, you knew it would make a very good club.
    Many stories of people who got too close getting a butt in the chin. You don't hear stories like that about the Steyr.
    I'm out of the loop in this regard, is it the firepower that's priority, or the accuracy?
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  18. #13
    Lt General ODIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    A testament to the rifle that its still in service. If you didn't hit the target, you knew it would make a very good club.
    Many stories of people who got too close getting a butt in the chin. You don't hear stories like that about the Steyr.
    I'm out of the loop in this regard, is it the firepower that's priority, or the accuracy?
    Yanks looking at a 6.8mm round these days that will give accuracy and a bit of bang for the buck, but there's been complaints that recoil has been an issue.
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

  19. #14
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    Correct apod except I don’t think trials have been done. Open to correction
    Last edited by spider pig; 23rd January 2021 at 17:13.
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  20. #15
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spider pig View Post
    Correct apod except I don’t think trials have been done. Open to correction
    They were. October 2019.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

  21. #16
    CQMS spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    In the UK 3 Soldiers per section are trained up on the Sharpshooter rifle but only one carries it. Usually decided by the top three shooters scores on PWT in each section

    Seeing as we don't operate as permanently formed sections or Platoons on Island this could prove problematic to emulate.

    Inf and Cav RECCE Dets are getting them too.

    Trials already conducted. Most of the Rifles mentioned above were tested.
    My eldest is hoping to get on a sharpshooter cadre this year. And a JNCO cadre in the autumn. Going to be a busy year and even busier next year.
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  22. #17
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    Should this be a stand-alone tender? Should a DMR not be part of a wider modular weapons system to replace the FAL and AUG?

    There has been a move for many years to modular weapons systems whereby a number of different weapons are based upon a common platform, usually the same layout, fire control group and receiver with different barrels and calibers been offered. Take the DMR role, the soldier who has the DMR will standout within any group of soldiers as the rest have the AUG, which looks very different from the majority of current DMR rifle, that makes them a key target. Secondly the fire controls on most conventional DMR rifles are very different from those of the AUG, this means that the muscle memory will be different. While with plenty of training this can be over-come if there was a common platform this would not be the case.

    The combination of the HK416 and the HK417 as used by the ARW is just one example of the use of a platform system.

    Of course what was left out of the BA trails was a 7.62 x 51 version of a bullpup, Tavor 7 and if they ever make a militerised version the MDR.

  23. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Take the DMR role, the soldier who has the DMR will standout within any group of soldiers as the rest have the AUG, which looks very different from the majority of current DMR rifle, that makes them a key target. Secondly the fire controls on most conventional DMR rifles are very different from those of the AUG, this means that the muscle memory will be different. While with plenty of training this can be over-come if there was a common platform this would not be the case.
    US Marines or Army (can't recall which) specified similar looking DMR weapon and fire controls for exactly these reasons in their most recent tender.

    Having such a distinctive looking weapon as the AUG will always make soldiers stand out from others, if because the AUG looks completely different to most other armies AR type platforms or an AR platform makes ARW, etc. stand out against reg troops here.

    Is this the start of the re-introduction of 7.62 as the standard round
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  24. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    US Marines or Army (can't recall which) specified similar looking DMR weapon and fire controls for exactly these reasons in their most recent tender.

    Having such a distinctive looking weapon as the AUG will always make soldiers stand out from others, if because the AUG looks completely different to most other armies AR type platforms or an AR platform makes ARW, etc. stand out against reg troops here.

    Is this the start of the re-introduction of 7.62 as the standard round
    I think not. Once it was accepted the 7.62 would remain the calibre of choice for the squad fire support, then having more than one weapon of that calibre was inevitable. Indeed, with the M203 you are dealing with 3 calibres in a section already.
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  25. #20
    Lt Colonel EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-RayOne View Post
    US Marines or Army (can't recall which) specified similar looking DMR weapon and fire controls for exactly these reasons in their most recent tender.

    Having such a distinctive looking weapon as the AUG will always make soldiers stand out from others, if because the AUG looks completely different to most other armies AR type platforms or an AR platform makes ARW, etc. stand out against reg troops here.
    It was the US Army with the Compact Semi-Automatic Sniper System which became the M110A1, (HK417, G28).

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  27. #21
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    I think not. Once it was accepted the 7.62 would remain the calibre of choice for the squad fire support, then having more than one weapon of that calibre was inevitable. Indeed, with the M203 you are dealing with 3 calibres in a section already.
    Oh for a sarcasm highlight button
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  28. #22
    Lt Colonel EUFighter's Avatar
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    My contenders would be the following;

    From HK the G28
    https://www.heckler-koch.com/en/prod...ical-data.html

    From FN the Scar Mk20 (aka Scar 20S)
    https://fnamerica.com/products/rifles/fn-mk20-ssr/

    From LMT the L129A1
    https://lmtdefense.com/product/lm308ssr/

    From IWI the Tavor 7
    https://iwi.net/iwi-tavor-rifle/tavor-7/

    And as wild card from Desert Tec the MDRX
    https://deserttech.com/mdr.php

    All come in either 7.62x51 or 6.5 Creedmoor (except Tavor), and with a 16" or 20" barrel options.

  29. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    My contenders would be the following;

    From HK the G28
    https://www.heckler-koch.com/en/prod...ical-data.html

    From FN the Scar Mk20 (aka Scar 20S)
    https://fnamerica.com/products/rifles/fn-mk20-ssr/

    From LMT the L129A1
    https://lmtdefense.com/product/lm308ssr/

    From IWI the Tavor 7
    https://iwi.net/iwi-tavor-rifle/tavor-7/

    And as wild card from Desert Tec the MDRX
    https://deserttech.com/mdr.php

    All come in either 7.62x51 or 6.5 Creedmoor (except Tavor), and with a 16" or 20" barrel options.
    The RFP states it has to be in use with 2 NATO/PFP countries, so that's the MDRX and Tavor out....and I think the SCAR is unlikely. There are SCARs floating around with people in the Curragh so I think they'll know.
    So HK and LMT it is.

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  31. #24
    Recruit Zulu_00's Avatar
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    What's the source of this RFP? Any more gen on when it would be entering service etc?

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