Amazon facility developers must co-ordinate with Irish Air Corps

[GoneToTheCanner]

Amazon own cargo aircraft too, so they might just be setting up a maintenance base for their aircraft.

[The Usual Suspect]

Another nail in the coffin for Baldonnel I think. This further reduces space for future expansion. The site is alongside, and on the threshold of 05/23, ruling out any hope of extending that to the south in future. The Amazon Buildings will be closer to the runway than any of the Air Corps Hangars currently are.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/amazon-facility-developers-must-co-ordinate-with-irish-air-corps-1.4471404

The Planning notice is here.
http://www.sdublincoco.ie/Planning/D...f=SD19A%2F0370

May not be the worst possible scenario for future development at Baldonnel.

You'd need to talk to a drainage engineer; but on the face of it, those hydrological works at the end of 04/22 wouldn't, of themselves, absolutely preclude future extension.

It's a sweeping generalisation, I know, but modern airliners are far less susceptible to cross-winds interference than other aircraft types. This would, as I understand it, make 10/28 the leading prospect for any medium-term extension to 2,500m+ (Required to regularly operate Amazon's 737-800 freighters out of the 'Don.)

Doubtless, there'd be IDA funding available for such a project.

Retail Detail 06/01/21: Amazon buys a dozen planes and flies to Europe

Freight Waves 08/11/20: Amazon Air opens first European hub

Simple Flying 07/11/20: Amazon Air Bringing Prime Air Boeing 737 Freighters To Europe

Previous post on >Air Corps>Military transport aircraft: Suggesting DAA involvement in future development of Baldonnel

[na grohmiti]

You couldn't do so without demolishing what sits under the approach on Aylmer Rd. Looks listed.
You have a trainee pilot, trying to control a high powered turboprop suddenly having to master dealing with wind sheer also?

[The Usual Suspect]

You couldn't do so without demolishing what sits under the approach on Aylmer Rd. Looks listed.

Not aware of any listed/candidate property so close to the centreline of 10/28 as to require demolition. Can you advise further?

You have a trainee pilot, trying to control a high powered turboprop suddenly having to master dealing with wind sheer also?

You have me wrong there. Retain 04/22 explicitly for the use of Air Corps aircraft.

[na grohmiti]

Doesn't work that way.
Look at the map.

[Chuck]

Just a couple of points regarding Baldonnels runways.

There is only one precision approach which is a CAT1 ILS to 10. This allows aircraft to get down to 200ft AGL. The problem here is, the prevailing wind is from the SW-W and 90% of approaches are flown to 28 and 22. You can circle of course but the decision minima are obviously higher and circling, particularly at night with CAT C&D aircraft in marginal weather is a risk most commercial operators would rather avoid.

Rwy 28 has a VOR non precision approach which has higher minimums than an ILS but is used quite regularly. It is offset due to the terrain to the South and a precision approach is not possible due to the aforementioned terrain. You could have an offset ILS or RNP approach but being offset is going to raise the minimums to similar to that of a non precision approach so its a zero sum game.

Rwy 22 also has a non precision VOR approach which. Given that the FAF is almost exactly above dublin airport its use requires deconfliction with Dublin and in normal times, provides them with a headache they can do without.

Rwy 04 has no instrument approaches and is essentially useless for anything other than VFR circuits. And given its orientation is rarely used.

The property at the end of the extended centerline of 28 is not listed. The only option here is for a CPO and given the location and the potential value of the land (were it rezoned for decelopment) would be significant.

I don't know a huge amount about the Amazon distribution network but I really cannot see Baldonnel becoming some sort of Hub for their network. There is absolutely merit in having a warehouse there to supply the Irish market post brexit but I cant see the need to open up an airport hub at Baldonnel given they have established connections at both Dublin and Shannon which are both fully H24 and are both international airports with all the infrastructure already in place.

Couple of points to consider.

Any significant increase in traffic, particularly night time cargo would be met with a significant amount of objection from the local population of Clondalkin, Tallaght and the SW dublin area. Any proposed cargo ops would require political will and turkeys dont vote for Christmas.

Where the warehouse is currently being constructed does not offer any potential "cargo ramp" space. there is significant "drainage ponds" there which can't be concreted over.

There are the obvious ATC and CRS manpower issues which have been highlighted for a significant period of time. Any notion that the DOD will suddenly pump money into these areas to facilitate Amazon are wildly implausible. Likewise, there is no mechanism for Amazon to say that they will cover the shortfall.

Moving the Air Corps to Shannon is often thrown up without any real reasoning. Again, rightly or wrongly, many people in the Air Corps from the greater Dublin area chose their career based on being stationed in a certain area. Its not like the guards, or to a lesser extent the army where you could be posted anywhere. Any meaningful move to Shannon would cause untold HR issues that would cripple the organization. There are a sizable amount of personnel who would likely leave as a result. It might suit a minority but it would be a minority. Any move like this would need a 10-15 year gradual lead in to bed in new personnel and those willing to move while those who dont either hang on to the end and retire.

The biggest elephant in the room is of course the second runway at Dublin. While there are night restrictions of course, this offers a significant increase in the number of daily movements. There are established supply chains and infrastructure in place. Why would Amazon want the hassle of setting up a mini hub or similar, dealing with the DOD and AC constantly, along with the expense when they can just buy a couple of trucks and do shuttle runs to and from Dublin? They either go all in at Baldonnel which is unlikely for multiple reasons or else remain using Dublin. They are in the business of making money. Doing something half arsed like this, to please a small market (in the grand scheme of things) doesnt make alot of financial sense to me. But I am happy to be educated.

In summary, in my opinion, its a non runner and won't happen. You're more likely to see a flight of Gripens on the ramp in Baldonnel sooner than you'll see an Amazon 737 or ATR on the "Cargo Ramp" there.

[na grohmiti]

Is it 04/22 or 05/21?
I remember when the Air Corps moved out of Gormanston. Many who were based there lived in the Drogheda/Meath area, and the relatively sudden change to suddenly working in South Co. Dublin did not suit many. It was a short sighted decision at the time, for very little gain, other than having all techs working from one base again. It was done wrong, and could have been phased in over time, but thats how the DF works.
Many left as a result, a good few of those were technicians. The Commute was too much, even though all had started their career in the Don.

There are as many Dubs in the Air Corps as there is Corkmen in the Naval Service. i.e, not as many as you would expect. Those who join the DF to be close to home join the wrong organisation. In recent years, Army Units all over the country ceased to exist , and those who found themselves with out a unit made the decision to retrain to a New corps to remain at their old location, or transfer to where their old corps still existed. It's a shit move, but it isn't unique to the Defence Forces.

[Chuck]

Is it 04/22 or 05/21?
I remember when the Air Corps moved out of Gormanston. Many who were based there lived in the Drogheda/Meath area, and the relatively sudden change to suddenly working in South Co. Dublin did not suit many. It was a short sighted decision at the time, for very little gain, other than having all techs working from one base again. It was done wrong, and could have been phased in over time, but thats how the DF works.
Many left as a result, a good few of those were technicians. The Commute was too much, even though all had started their career in the Don.

There are as many Dubs in the Air Corps as there is Corkmen in the Naval Service. i.e, not as many as you would expect. Those who join the DF to be close to home join the wrong organisation. In recent years, Army Units all over the country ceased to exist , and those who found themselves with out a unit made the decision to retrain to a New corps to remain at their old location, or transfer to where their old corps still existed. It's a shit move, but it isn't unique to the Defence Forces.

The previous designation was 29/11 and 23/05 but thanks to some magnetic changes in the arctic its now 28/10 and 22/04.

The move from Gormanston was clear cut for some but not for others. Aircraft technicians were sent on their way to Bal in quick time to continue to carry out their trade. It wasnt so simple for a handful of non tech personnel, those in Logs Sp and Admin roles. There was a few, up until recent years, old sweats hanging around Gormo doing odd jobs rather than move to Bal.

You are correct though. For someone living in the north midlands or north east, the change meant a significant increase in commute in addition to one if not two tolls both ways.

I have never met someone who has regretted their time in Gormonston. It remains, to this day, possibly the best kept secret in the DF. You'll never hear the 27th complain about manning it that's for sure.

Aside from re-orgs or retraining, the problem still remains for the officer corps at least. If you are an army comdt based in the Dublin area which suits your personal situation, volunteering for overseas or the command and staff course is now a non runner as you are more than likely going to be shipped off to another barracks on return/completion of course. The same situation does not exist for enlisted personnel as their vacancy is held regardless of career course or overseas service. For a relatively small organization on a small island with people from all over, there is an almost overt tendency to move people away from where they have laid roots.

For the army at least, there is an expectation that you may move around a bit given the location of different barracks. Given that the Air Corps has one base (not including the hangar in Athlone) its a bit more of a safer better.

[DeV]

Is it 04/22 or 05/21?
I remember when the Air Corps moved out of Gormanston. Many who were based there lived in the Drogheda/Meath area, and the relatively sudden change to suddenly working in South Co. Dublin did not suit many. It was a short sighted decision at the time, for very little gain, other than having all techs working from one base again. It was done wrong, and could have been phased in over time, but thats how the DF works.
Many left as a result, a good few of those were technicians. The Commute was too much, even though all had started their career in the Don.

There are as many Dubs in the Air Corps as there is Corkmen in the Naval Service. i.e, not as many as you would expect. Those who join the DF to be close to home join the wrong organisation. In recent years, Army Units all over the country ceased to exist , and those who found themselves with out a unit made the decision to retrain to a New corps to remain at their old location, or transfer to where their old corps still existed. It's a shit move, but it isn't unique to the Defence Forces.

They many live in Donegal When they join but they will put down their roots in commuting distance of Cobh/Baldonnel.

It is worse than that many people in the army have to commute long distances because their local barracks closed (or they left).... if other ranks want promotion it often means changing location (and much longer commute) and officers are rotated around the country

[GoneToTheCanner]

I recall Gormo being used as an actual or threatened punishment, "you'll be ****ed off to Gormo!", being the operative phrase and one young Airman I knew was dispatched there for a minor infraction and I met him a few years later and asked him how he was doing. He loved it; it was a very handy number, the pace was relaxed and he had bought a house in Meath for much less than a house in Dublin and he had no intention of going near Baldonnel ever again. When it was closed as an AC base, he stayed on with the local Army unit for a while and then left. He never regretted the move. It really should have been kept as an active airfield.

[Chuck]

I recall Gormo being used as an actual or threatened punishment, "you'll be ****ed off to Gormo!", being the operative phrase and one young Airman I knew was dispatched there for a minor infraction and I met him a few years later and asked him how he was doing. He loved it; it was a very handy number, the pace was relaxed and he had bought a house in Meath for much less than a house in Dublin and he had no intention of going near Baldonnel ever again. When it was closed as an AC base, he stayed on with the local Army unit for a while and then left. He never regretted the move. It really should have been kept as an active airfield.

Its still affectionately referred to as "the shire" by many of the current occupiers and I don't blame them.

I really can't see that value in it being a full active airfield with all the bells and whistles that would be needed (Nav Aids, ATC, CRS etc etc) given how close it is to Casement and indeed Dublin. The Cessna's, which were a VFR aircraft were the only permanent residents. Having an ADF approach beside the sea isn't ideal either. If it was to be used, the only real option would be RW.

I think there was discussion previously on here about having it as a central depot for all recruit training. Seems like a good idea in theory. It has decent real estate and plenty of room for expansion but there has been very little capital investment there in recent years.

The other option is that you construct a new facility for the ARW but id argue that its more exposed than their current arrangement to prying eyes. That said, there is real estate for such a facility in Baldonnel and it could be argued that having RW/FW assets on site would be of great value to the ARW.

[na grohmiti]

The further the ARW are from prying eyes the better. Motorists on the N7 can see everything going on within Casement, if traffic is slow enough.
You could spend a month in the Cav school and be no wiser as to what's going on a few hundred metres away. Long may that continue.

[Laners]

The further the ARW are from prying eyes the better. Motorists on the N7 can see everything going on within Casement, if traffic is slow enough.
You could spend a month in the Cav school and be no wiser as to what's going on a few hundred metres away. Long may that continue.

The Google Street View of Casement along the frontage at the entrance is blurred for some reason yet you can view the entire place from the aerial view !

[na grohmiti]

The Google Street View of Casement along the frontage at the entrance is blurred for some reason yet you can view the entire place from the aerial view !

Nobody must know the colour of the blue railings!

[GoneToTheCanner]

It's more secret than a secret thing!!