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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    "Is current satellite technology up to much when it comes to detecting vessels at sea? I believe the Navy currently uses a sat system that can locate vessels using transponders - but what about vessels without gps transponders"

    Primary scanning radar or satelite surveliance is very problematic as it shows far too many images to procurespecific targets from.Its great if you have a specific target to track but picking out specific targets is difficult. Good intelligance from the source country and better co operation between international agencies would be a major step in the right direction
    It should be noted that private craft are not required to have a transponder tracking system fitted. However, AIS (automatic identification systems), are now common place amongst most ocean going private vessels. There are two types, Class A, which is a mandatory fit under the safety of life at sea (SOLAS) convention, to vessels over 300 gross tons or which carry more than 11 pasangers in international waters. Usually used by the commercial guys. Class B, for the so called 'yachties' or other classes which do not fit in to the class A mandatory fit category.
    It can transmit information such as, name of vessel, callsign, MMSI no, length and type of vessel, position, speed and course over ground, port of call, cargo type and what you had for breakfast.
    Very effective, except that there is in all cases the ability to switch off the unit or go to 'receive' only mode, so that a vessel can still be in a covert mode of operaton.
    Even if the vessel's tracking system was self contained and hidden, all one has to do is to place tin foil over the small antenna to disable it.

    Nothing is fool proof!
    Last edited by Test Pilot; 12th July 2007 at 08:39.

  2. #77
    Cut backs luchi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pym View Post
    Another point is that this shipment was being trafficked through Ireland as a means to get into the UK. This has me thinking that perhaps these drug runners see this country as a soft touch compared to our neighbours.

    This has to change.
    Is it not tme we looked for a European solution?

    With the moving of Europes outer boundaries there must be Anti-Drug enforcement officers spare in countries like Germany that are now surrounded by "friendly boarders"

    Since drugs and drug dealers do not respect the neutrality of our land maybe European Naval co-operation could be an option that might give 24/7 protection to the whole union.
    It probably can not stop everything but at least it would not be so easy
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by luchi View Post
    Is it not tme we looked for a European solution?

    With the moving of Europes outer boundaries there must be Anti-Drug enforcement officers spare in countries like Germany that are now surrounded by "friendly boarders"

    Since drugs and drug dealers do not respect the neutrality of our land maybe European Naval co-operation could be an option that might give 24/7 protection to the whole union.
    It probably can not stop everything but at least it would not be so easy
    This was mooted a few years ago I think, having European navies police European seas collectively. There would probably be some legalities involved in having foreign naval vessels apprehend Irish or other flagged vessels in Irish seas but that could be sorted out.

    This combined with better intelligence co-operation with other states would make things more difficult for the scum smuggling the drugs in.

    Question for the Navy lads: I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume British & US submarines are in Ireland's Atlantic waters quite often. Would they contact the Irish navy if they detected something, or would the fact they're meant to respect our boundaries preclude them from passing on intelligence?

    Actually... that might be operational info, if so - skip it!
    Last edited by pym; 11th July 2007 at 22:08.

  4. #79
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Enforcing European fishery regulations is solely the responsibility of the NS within the Irish Box...and with some great difficulty.One has to only look back and see how it took to develop this to the state it's at now..and thats only trying to enforce a very basic act who are predomiantely blatant in their actions.

    Can't see how the proposal to put an entire europe funded naval force in territorail awaters trying to enforce many forms of legislation, given that each country would have varying legislation regarding different acts!

    Given that most of the Europeans already have heavy national and nato commitments and the tendency to reduce naval forces..and also the lack of countries that could operate say at two hundered miles from home without having to have a vast supplementary force...

    Nice idea but almost practically impossible given the logistics involved.
    In that the European land and airforce is still along way off ....trying to activate a naval force with imput from national police , interpol, customs services, intelliegence agencies, and last of all naval forces.....could it really be a runner....?

    Given that the USA has four or five agencies already trying to that job on a single national scale and the limited success they have..imagine how a european force would fall apart at the seams with issues such as who has juristiction over what and where..who has responsibilty for what and where....and the biggie..who funds it at a capital and running cost level.

    Basic set up as is looks like intelligence ,surveilance and interception.

    the first two have to improve before the third can happen and given the already declared interests in these areas with lack of resources how can it be further funded without very little proven sucess notably one or two interceptions per year...hardly a recipe for building or funding an entire seperate naval force to purely prevent drug importation.

    I reckon that most countries would secretly admit that its easier to deal with the consequences of drugs ashore rather than slash out massive sums in the off chance they may intercept some at sea.


    "Question for the Navy lads: I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume British & US submarines are in Ireland's Atlantic waters quite often. Would they contact the Irish navy if they detected something, or would the fact they're meant to respect our boundaries preclude them from passing on intelligence?"

    In answer to this if it was within their remit to do such things they would..but by nature submarines like to go undetected so broadcasting their position without it being part of their remit is unlikely....given they had a tendency to 'bump' into things in the past and denied it..they are hardly going to admit to being where they shouldn't be in the first place.
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 11th July 2007 at 22:16.
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  5. #80
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    Ireland's economic box which requires patrolling is still generally international waters, and submarines have as much right to be there as anyone else, as long as it's outside of the twelve-mile limit. I can see the sub being used to track someone if there's intel on them, but I don't see how a sub can identify a suspicious drug-related sound contact to report in the first place.

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  6. #81
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    "and submarines have as much right to be there as anyone else, as long as it's outside of the twelve-mile limit."

    hasn't always been the case ,in reality submarines did transit through Irish waters ' illegally' think this policy changed after a few incidents in the mid eighties.

    Would the US be prepared to comit to patrolling European waters for Drug couriers..as none except the UKRN have the capabilities to track such vessels for long periods of time.

    Most of the european forces use there submarines for home coastal defence work and the UKRNs submarine fleet fast dwindling as it is is over commited to other primary taskings.

    I'm sure if there was amandate to track such vessels it would feasible but a high a specialist aircraft such as the persuader operated by the AC..or the Nimrod or even P3 Orions couple with satellite intel could be as effective. the Nimrod in particular has an amazing loiter time in that it can loiter on one engine reducing fuel consumption for up to 14 hours.

    If you look back to the NATO AWAACS developed in the late '80s which was Luxembourg registered but with a whole of NATO obligation would not a permanent maritime patrol air flleet be more viable ,run on the same lines as the AWAAcs scenario.

    Along witha credible stand by naval force equipped with suitable vessels such as the NS this could well be a cost effective solution if the will to implement it was there.

    but then again its back to source intelligence..and if you need to infiltrate such organisations..amulitnational special forces..albeit it military or police run.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  7. #82
    Teuton Foot Soldier ZULU's Avatar
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    Saw today in the Irish Times, the announcement of a second Customs Cutter worth 2.3million euro along with a second TEU X-Ray scanner at a cost of 4 million
    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

  8. #83
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Excellent...

    Same as Suirbheir or are they gonna go the whole tendering route again? The first x ray scanner has already paid for itself many times. However if its seen in rosslare by the criminals, they'll arrange to send their consignment thru one of the other roro ports instead.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  9. #84
    Teuton Foot Soldier ZULU's Avatar
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    Don't know. All I read in the article is posted. 2700 drug seizures in the state in 2007 valued at over 137million. (105 million was due to the one haul at Dunlough Bay, Cork)
    Total cigarette haul in 2007 was 24 million.
    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

  10. #85
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    http://www.revenue.ie/index.htm?/press/pr_150208sos.htm

    Tánaiste announces new Customs Cutter and new Scanner at Revenue Strategy launch

    At a ceremony in Dublin today (15/02/2008) Mr. Frank Daly, Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, presented Revenue's sixth Statement of Strategy to the Tánaiste and Minister for Finance Mr. Brian Cowen T.D.. Also present at the event on the Liffey was Mr. Pat Carey, T.D., Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs with special responsibility for Drugs Strategy and Community Affairs. The Statement which covers the period 2008 to 2010 sets out Revenue's high-level programme of work for the coming three years.
    At the launch the Tánaiste announced that Revenue is to purchase a second Customs cutter and a second x-ray container scanner for its Customs Service.
    Speaking at the launch Tánaiste Mr. Brian Cowen T.D. said,
    "Both of these investments are tangible examples of the commitment of Revenue's Customs Service and this Government to tackling the drugs problem which is causing enormous hardship and pain to people in our communities."
    Minister Carey said:
    "I am delighted to join with the Tánaiste as he announces Revenue's decision to make a further significant investment in additional maritime and scanner equipment. The purchase of a second cutter and a second scanner, both of which it is hoped to have in service next year, underscores the Customs Service commitment to the Government’s National Drug Strategy and to protecting society."
    Speaking at the announcement Mr Daly said:
    "Effective tax and customs administration is at the core of Ireland's fiscal, social and economic foundations. Public confidence in Revenue is therefore vital and we value a reputation as a "can do" organisation that is fair and ethical and delivers through innovation."
    "We intend to enhance that reputation over the lifetime of this Statement Of Strategy - one which will take us to the end of the first decade of this new Millennium."
    The existing Cutter, R.C.C. Suirbhéir was built by Uudenkaupungin Tyovene in Finland at a cost of €1.6 million and has been involved in operations aimed at controlling the smuggling of drugs around the Irish coastline since its introduction in June 2004.
    The existing Customs x-ray container scanner, built by Nuctech in China at a cost of €3 million, was introduced in February 2006. It has been a successful addition to Revenue's drug interdiction resource and has proved its worth in a very short time - contributing to the seizure of drugs and other contraband to a value of €23 million.
    Last edited by CTU; 16th February 2008 at 15:14.
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  11. #86
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Customs secure €6.3m equipment boost in battle against drug smuggling

    By Noel Baker
    THE Revenue Commissioners are to spend up to €6.3 million on new equipment aimed at cutting the amount of drugs being smuggled into the country.


    It was announced yesterday that Revenue will buy a second Customs Cutter vessel and a second X-ray scanner that will be used by Customs officers.

    The plans to buy the cutter and scanner were announced yesterday at a ceremony in Dublin at which the Revenue Commissioners also unveiled its sixth Statement of Strategy.





    The new equipment will cost a combined total of up to €6.3m and is a response to the increased quantities of drugs being smuggled into the country in recent years.

    The existing Custom’s Cutter, called the RCC Suirbhear and which cost €1.6m when commissioned in 2004, is currently based in Cork Harbour. It has six crew and was recently involved in the seizure of €105m worth of cocaine at Dunlough Bay off the Co Cork coast.

    It will now be joined by the new cutter vessel, which will cost €2.3m, the Revenue press office said yesterday.

    As for the existing Customs Mobile X-Ray Container Scanner, it cost €3m and is used to detect drugs and contraband and can scan containers, trailers and vehicles in less than 30 minutes. Since it was purchased in February 2006 it has already been involved in the seizure of €17m worth of drugs and the seizure of cigarettes worth €6.3m.

    Even though that scanner was only launched two years ago, another scanner will now be bought and is likely to cost between €3m and €4m.

    Revenue said it was still considering where both the new cutter and scanner will be located, and added that both pieces of equipment are expected to be delivered and in operation by the end of 2009.

    The new Revenue Commissioner’s Strategy also highlights the need for increased efforts to prevent drug smuggling.

    In addition to its other priorities, such as ensuring general tax compliance and combating tax and customs evasion, the Strategy states that there will be “a particular focus on tackling the growing threat of drugs smuggling”.

    The purchase of the scanner, cutter and the publication of the new Revenue Strategy was welcomed by Tanaiste Brian Cowen, who claimed the investments were “tangible examples” of efforts by Revenue and Government to tackle the drugs problem.

    Minister with Special Responsibility for Drugs Strategy and Community Affairs, Pat Carey, who also attended yesterday’s event said: “The purchase of a second cutter and scanner, both of which are hoped to be in service next year, underscores the Customs Service commitment to the National Drug Strategy and to protecting society.”
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishex...409-qqqx=1.asp


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  12. #87
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    I worked in a ship line office for a short while one point. Under SOLAS/ISPS the Dutch scan a percentage of containers (selected randomly, but also depending on suspicious paperwork etc). As the threat level goes up the more they scan.


    One point I liked about this was the consignee had to pay for the scan (I think it was €150 at the time).

    If the Revenue do the same they will pay for it after scanning around 26,000 containers. To put that in persceptive, Dublin Port handled 675,000 TEUs in 2006 (and that is just Lo/Lo).
    Last edited by DeV; 16th February 2008 at 17:39.

  13. #88
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Any indication whether the new cutter will be the same size, or larger?


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  14. #89
    Sqdn. Ldr Silver's Avatar
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    Great to hear that the Customs service is finally getting more cutters!

    However,

    Is it time for the Customs service to be established independent of Revenue?

    I recently heard some comments by Customs personnel that many of them are somewhat tired of the lack of investment in equipment. And also that fact that the Revenue's primary task is to collect revenue....and there's no money to be gained in finding drugs, etc.....hence Customs has always been treated as the 'poor cousin' when it comes to investment in equipment?!
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  15. #90
    Colonel pmtts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver View Post
    I recently heard some comments by Customs personnel that many of them are somewhat tired of the lack of investment in equipment. And also that fact that the Revenue's primary task is to collect revenue....and there's no money to be gained in finding drugs, etc.....hence Customs has always been treated as the 'poor cousin' when it comes to investment in equipment?!
    I wonder if that's the reason HM Customs & Excise are now HM Revenue & Customs!!

  16. #91
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    It is a bit odd that the same people tasked with the prevention of smuggling are also responsible for the collection of Vehicle Registration Tax.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  17. #92
    Colonel pmtts's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldie fish View Post
    It is a bit odd that the same people tasked with the prevention of smuggling are also responsible for the collection of Vehicle Registration Tax.
    Could'nt agree more. Instead of having a dedicated website that explains the work of the Customs and the National Investigative Unit, you are now dazzled with child benefit, national insurance and VAT!!!

  18. #93
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Dippin diesel one day, checkin customs seals on containers next.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  19. #94
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmtts View Post
    Could'nt agree more. Instead of having a dedicated website that explains the work of the Customs and the National Investigative Unit, you are now dazzled with child benefit, national insurance and VAT!!!
    http://www.revenue.ie/index.htm?/ser...stoms/cndt.htm

  20. #95
    Colonel pmtts's Avatar
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    Sorry Dev, I should have been more specific. I was refering to HM Customs

  21. #96
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    If there is anyone on the site actually working in the Irish Revenue Comissioners, could they PM me? Thank you.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  22. #97
    Teuton Foot Soldier ZULU's Avatar
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    Just thinking, gone are the days now that the Customs Delta Rib would come and check up on the visitors, now its the Cutter. Moving on up !
    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

  23. #98
    Armchair Admiral ocean's Avatar
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    New Customs Cutter - No Thank You

    Sorry, but I do not agree that we need a new cutter, we are trying to build the trappings of an empire and yet we have just over 4 million people. Customs craft, RNLI Craft, Navel Services. We are surrounded by the roughest seas in the world and we think that a 20metre craft is going to help sort our problems! Perception is fine - but lets get real and not waste taxpayers money. We need to enable things so that the seagoing agencies we have already can be focussed on the remit. What we need is joined up institutions.

  24. #99
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Like the US Coastguard perhaps? All your maritime agencies from maritime policing, to maritime safety and marine superintendants, along with search and rescue, buoyage and training under one agency. For a small nation it would make sense.

    Which is probably why it won't happen. Too much empire building to upset.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  25. #100
    Sqdn. Ldr Silver's Avatar
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    Wasnt the idea of a dedicated Coastguard agency (incorporating the NS) mooted by Smithy when he was defence minister, and shot down by all and sundry??

    Personally i dont think it will happen. In it's absence I believe the Customs service should be a stand-alone service with a small fleet of cutters and a couple of maritime patrol surveillance aircraft (perhaps piloted/operated by the AC).
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