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  1. #326
    CQMS The Usual Suspect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    While at risk of delving into CPV replacement territory..
    Where angels fear to tread..

    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    An ETV would not be suitable for MCM for the most part. ETVs are deep draft vessels, they need to be for thrust and stability. Many have propulsion arrangements that protrude well below the hullform. However they would be a consideration if Unmanned mine clearance craft were to be used, but that is a whole other, costly area that we have no recent experience in.
    So you are talking about having a crew trained to do very specialised salvage towing, as a secondary function, on one hand, and mine countermeasures as a secondary military function, on the other hand, all while maintaining their primary roles of Fishery protection and EEZ patrol.
    It is too much to expect of crews, when you are struggling to retain, that they become experts in two very different roles.
    Accepted in it's entirety.

    How about basing the MCM/UIED capability on the P50s and P60s?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    ..sufficient to meet NS operational, retention and development objectives in MCM/UIED?
    Diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means - Zhou Enlai

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  3. #327
    CQMS The Usual Suspect's Avatar
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    How about basing the MCM/UIED capability on the P50s and P60s?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    ..sufficient to meet NS operational, retention and development objectives in MCM/UIED?
    Have reproduced the above on >Navy & Naval Reserve >CPV Replacement for continuation of MCM/UIED discussion there.



    Appreciating that the procurement capacity at Naval Headquarters and the DoD will likely be preoccupied by Eithne's replacement, and that there may be a declining prospect of seeing steel cut for the first of the P40's successors before the next White Paper cycle begins in 2021..

    There may actually be an opportunity to lay out a comprehensive case for 2 (+2) high-speed-ERRV derived OPV/ETV hybrids in the meantime.

    Two as fleet replacements for the Peacocks, whose role (in this scenario) will be taken by the P50s, and two as new additions to the fleet.

    Four high-speed OPV/ETV hybrids would be able to operate a common/complimentary patrol pattern with the P50s and P60s while simultaneously providing comprehensive ETV cover.

    This arrangement would likely provide the most effective combined return on State expenditure available. The NS should be prepared to recieve the IRCG's next approach on this matter affirmatively, in principle, at least.




    High-Speed Emergency Response and Rescue Vessel
    Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 6th May 2019 at 00:43. Reason: Clarity
    Diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means - Zhou Enlai

  4. #328
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    How about basing the MCM/UIED capability on the P50s and P60s?



    Have reproduced the above on >Navy & Naval Reserve >CPV Replacement for continuation of MCM/UIED discussion there.



    Appreciating that the procurement capacity at Naval Headquarters and the DoD will likely be preoccupied by Eithne's replacement, and that there may be a declining prospect of seeing steel cut for the first of the P40's successors before the next White Paper cycle begins in 2021..

    There may actually be an opportunity to lay out a comprehensive case for 2 (+2) high-speed-ERRV derived OPV/ETV hybrids in the meantime.

    Two as fleet replacements for the Peacocks, whose role (in this scenario) will be taken by the P50s, and two as new additions to the fleet.

    Four high-speed OPV/ETV hybrids would be able to operate a common/complimentary patrol pattern with the P50s and P60s while simultaneously providing comprehensive ETV cover.

    This arrangement would likely provide the most effective combined return on State expenditure available. The NS should be prepared to recieve the IRCG's next approach on this matter affirmatively, in principle, at least.




    High-Speed Emergency Response and Rescue Vessel
    A 10 vessel fleet when they crews for 7 ?

  5. #329
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post

    (Conceptual examples only)

    Ideally a fleet of OPV/ETV hybrids would operate a common/complimentary patrol pattern with the P60s while simultaneously providing ETV cover.

    Availability for expeditionary missions, including MCM, would be subject to the usual operational constraints.
    Can’t provide MCM cover if they are also ETVs

  6. #330
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post

    ETV Positions N&W Europe 13th August 2012 from the IRCG Report PDF Page 15


    Either we know something that nobody else knows or we have not been paying sufficient attention to the issue.






    I don't offer any direct criticism of past priorities, just to acknowledge the need to strip the NS acquisition programme to it's least complex form, to come to terms with political realities of the time.

    That the most comprehensive fleet renewal in the history of the service was achieved, in the teeth of the worst state finances most of us can remember, is an exemplary achievement.

    Now that the last of the P60s has been commissioned, and much of the initial prepatory work for Eithne's replacement is underway, this may be the first opportunity to consider how future priorities might be aligned. Unfortunately this is well out of synch with the White Paper process. I understand the ambition to have steel cut for the first of the P40's successors before the next White Paper cycle begins in 2021. I just don't see how this can be achieved given the bandwidth that will be taken up at Naval Headquarters and the DoD by the EPV project.
    Very much doubt the P40 replacement will be even looked at till after 2021

  7. #331
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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  9. #332
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    Given decent weather windows most ships, including harbour tugs, can offer a tow. Interesting to find out what was the breakdown and who fixed it. it would also be interesting to dissect the rescue call-who was it sent to, what was the request , and how did Atlantic towing get called in. we are probably the only Coastal country with no ETV on offer. IMDO doesn't know, the Minister doesn't know, and nobody cares. That's why we have newsworthy incidents.

  10. #333
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    I got a good look around one of the Tugs involved some years ago when it was known as Thrax. It normally works in Bantry Bay escorting tankers to the SPM at Whiddy Island.While a fine standby tug for refineries, I am surprised it managed this range of operation, with her older tug from the same company assisting.




    It would be a very different story attempting the same operation in 2 months time.
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  12. #334
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    [QUOTE=na grohmiti;469872]I got a good look around one of the Tugs involved some years ago when it was known as Thrax. It normally works in Bantry Bay escorting tankers to the SPM at Whiddy Island.While a fine standby tug for refineries, I am surprised it managed this range of operation, with her older tug from the same company assisting.




    It would be a very different story attempting the same operation in 2 months time.[/QUOTE}

    It's all in Irish Examiner this morning. A fine example of MRCC nightmare. Captain on broken down ship rings his boss , come and get me. Boss checks yellow pages and rings an Irish tug company, Atlantic , being first name on the list. They send out their 6 man tug to 1000km ( 6oo NM) off shore. They silently pull it off, taking up to a week to accomplish task. It is possible that IMO/Law of sea, International regs were sidelined. No emergency declared to controlling MRCC, a total breakdown is NOT UNDER COMMAND and local State provides assistance through it's Rescue assets. !!!!

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  14. #335
    C/S CTU's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't 1000km out put the breakdown in the UK SAR region to begin with?
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed! I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

  15. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't 1000km out put the breakdown in the UK SAR region to begin with?
    Certainly the Published SAR map shows Ireland 's SRR as a region within a much larger British Region out to 38W Longitude. Our region is probably predicated on our rescue assets , particularily Maritime Air. If assistance is called as laid down then it is initiated by the controlling MRCC who will direct suitable assets including nearby shipping. If you call the owner only, nobody else knows , and it is up to the owner. Calls are required to be made using GMDSS procedures. Just an aside, the UK maritime air assets no longer match the requirements to police their SAR region-no Nimrods.

  16. #337
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    The P8 Poseidon is coming though. Could take a few years before they are fully operational.
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  18. #338
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The P8 Poseidon is coming though. Could take a few years before they are fully operational.
    Won't have a fraction of the loiter time the Nimrod had , nor is it compatible with current RAF IFR systems
    Time for another break I think......

  19. #339
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    I bet the tug boat crew will get great mileage telling stories in the bar about this one .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  21. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    I bet the tug boat crew will get great mileage telling stories in the bar about this one .
    Indeed, well achieved. However his crewing level for a week at sea with continuous running and towing needs scrutiny. The crew needs watchkeepers for bridge and Comms. to allow for 24 hr running. Chief Mate and a couple of seamen to watch the tow. Bridge lookouts to assist O.O.W.. Couple of engineers and ratings in the engineroom. Then a cook to cater.I reckon therefore doing 6 hrs on and 6 hrs off. 3 deck officers incl Captain, 2 Engineers , 2 mechanicians ,4 seamen, and a cook, about 12 all told.

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