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  1. #326
    CQMS The Usual Suspect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    While at risk of delving into CPV replacement territory..
    Where angels fear to tread..

    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    An ETV would not be suitable for MCM for the most part. ETVs are deep draft vessels, they need to be for thrust and stability. Many have propulsion arrangements that protrude well below the hullform. However they would be a consideration if Unmanned mine clearance craft were to be used, but that is a whole other, costly area that we have no recent experience in.
    So you are talking about having a crew trained to do very specialised salvage towing, as a secondary function, on one hand, and mine countermeasures as a secondary military function, on the other hand, all while maintaining their primary roles of Fishery protection and EEZ patrol.
    It is too much to expect of crews, when you are struggling to retain, that they become experts in two very different roles.
    Accepted in it's entirety.

    How about basing the MCM/UIED capability on the P50s and P60s?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    ..sufficient to meet NS operational, retention and development objectives in MCM/UIED?
    Diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means - Zhou Enlai

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  3. #327
    CQMS The Usual Suspect's Avatar
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    How about basing the MCM/UIED capability on the P50s and P60s?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    ..sufficient to meet NS operational, retention and development objectives in MCM/UIED?
    Have reproduced the above on >Navy & Naval Reserve >CPV Replacement for continuation of MCM/UIED discussion there.



    Appreciating that the procurement capacity at Naval Headquarters and the DoD will likely be preoccupied by Eithne's replacement, and that there may be a declining prospect of seeing steel cut for the first of the P40's successors before the next White Paper cycle begins in 2021..

    There may actually be an opportunity to lay out a comprehensive case for 2 (+2) high-speed-ERRV derived OPV/ETV hybrids in the meantime.

    Two as fleet replacements for the Peacocks, whose role (in this scenario) will be taken by the P50s, and two as new additions to the fleet.

    Four high-speed OPV/ETV hybrids would be able to operate a common/complimentary patrol pattern with the P50s and P60s while simultaneously providing comprehensive ETV cover.

    This arrangement would likely provide the most effective combined return on State expenditure available. The NS should be prepared to recieve the IRCG's next approach on this matter affirmatively, in principle, at least.




    High-Speed Emergency Response and Rescue Vessel
    Last edited by The Usual Suspect; 6th May 2019 at 00:43. Reason: Clarity
    Diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means - Zhou Enlai

  4. #328
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post
    How about basing the MCM/UIED capability on the P50s and P60s?



    Have reproduced the above on >Navy & Naval Reserve >CPV Replacement for continuation of MCM/UIED discussion there.



    Appreciating that the procurement capacity at Naval Headquarters and the DoD will likely be preoccupied by Eithne's replacement, and that there may be a declining prospect of seeing steel cut for the first of the P40's successors before the next White Paper cycle begins in 2021..

    There may actually be an opportunity to lay out a comprehensive case for 2 (+2) high-speed-ERRV derived OPV/ETV hybrids in the meantime.

    Two as fleet replacements for the Peacocks, whose role (in this scenario) will be taken by the P50s, and two as new additions to the fleet.

    Four high-speed OPV/ETV hybrids would be able to operate a common/complimentary patrol pattern with the P50s and P60s while simultaneously providing comprehensive ETV cover.

    This arrangement would likely provide the most effective combined return on State expenditure available. The NS should be prepared to recieve the IRCG's next approach on this matter affirmatively, in principle, at least.




    High-Speed Emergency Response and Rescue Vessel
    A 10 vessel fleet when they crews for 7 ?

  5. #329
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post

    (Conceptual examples only)

    Ideally a fleet of OPV/ETV hybrids would operate a common/complimentary patrol pattern with the P60s while simultaneously providing ETV cover.

    Availability for expeditionary missions, including MCM, would be subject to the usual operational constraints.
    Can’t provide MCM cover if they are also ETVs

  6. #330
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Usual Suspect View Post

    ETV Positions N&W Europe 13th August 2012 from the IRCG Report PDF Page 15


    Either we know something that nobody else knows or we have not been paying sufficient attention to the issue.






    I don't offer any direct criticism of past priorities, just to acknowledge the need to strip the NS acquisition programme to it's least complex form, to come to terms with political realities of the time.

    That the most comprehensive fleet renewal in the history of the service was achieved, in the teeth of the worst state finances most of us can remember, is an exemplary achievement.

    Now that the last of the P60s has been commissioned, and much of the initial prepatory work for Eithne's replacement is underway, this may be the first opportunity to consider how future priorities might be aligned. Unfortunately this is well out of synch with the White Paper process. I understand the ambition to have steel cut for the first of the P40's successors before the next White Paper cycle begins in 2021. I just don't see how this can be achieved given the bandwidth that will be taken up at Naval Headquarters and the DoD by the EPV project.
    Very much doubt the P40 replacement will be even looked at till after 2021

  7. #331
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  9. #332
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    Given decent weather windows most ships, including harbour tugs, can offer a tow. Interesting to find out what was the breakdown and who fixed it. it would also be interesting to dissect the rescue call-who was it sent to, what was the request , and how did Atlantic towing get called in. we are probably the only Coastal country with no ETV on offer. IMDO doesn't know, the Minister doesn't know, and nobody cares. That's why we have newsworthy incidents.

  10. #333
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    I got a good look around one of the Tugs involved some years ago when it was known as Thrax. It normally works in Bantry Bay escorting tankers to the SPM at Whiddy Island.While a fine standby tug for refineries, I am surprised it managed this range of operation, with her older tug from the same company assisting.




    It would be a very different story attempting the same operation in 2 months time.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  12. #334
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    [QUOTE=na grohmiti;469872]I got a good look around one of the Tugs involved some years ago when it was known as Thrax. It normally works in Bantry Bay escorting tankers to the SPM at Whiddy Island.While a fine standby tug for refineries, I am surprised it managed this range of operation, with her older tug from the same company assisting.




    It would be a very different story attempting the same operation in 2 months time.[/QUOTE}

    It's all in Irish Examiner this morning. A fine example of MRCC nightmare. Captain on broken down ship rings his boss , come and get me. Boss checks yellow pages and rings an Irish tug company, Atlantic , being first name on the list. They send out their 6 man tug to 1000km ( 6oo NM) off shore. They silently pull it off, taking up to a week to accomplish task. It is possible that IMO/Law of sea, International regs were sidelined. No emergency declared to controlling MRCC, a total breakdown is NOT UNDER COMMAND and local State provides assistance through it's Rescue assets. !!!!

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  14. #335
    C/S CTU's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't 1000km out put the breakdown in the UK SAR region to begin with?
    Well, government doesn't stop just because the country's been destroyed!
    I mean, annihilation's bad enough without anarchy to make things even worse!

  15. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't 1000km out put the breakdown in the UK SAR region to begin with?
    Certainly the Published SAR map shows Ireland 's SRR as a region within a much larger British Region out to 38W Longitude. Our region is probably predicated on our rescue assets , particularily Maritime Air. If assistance is called as laid down then it is initiated by the controlling MRCC who will direct suitable assets including nearby shipping. If you call the owner only, nobody else knows , and it is up to the owner. Calls are required to be made using GMDSS procedures. Just an aside, the UK maritime air assets no longer match the requirements to police their SAR region-no Nimrods.

  16. #337
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    The P8 Poseidon is coming though. Could take a few years before they are fully operational.
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  18. #338
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The P8 Poseidon is coming though. Could take a few years before they are fully operational.
    Won't have a fraction of the loiter time the Nimrod had , nor is it compatible with current RAF IFR systems
    Time for another break I think......

  19. #339
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    I bet the tug boat crew will get great mileage telling stories in the bar about this one .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  21. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    I bet the tug boat crew will get great mileage telling stories in the bar about this one .
    Indeed, well achieved. However his crewing level for a week at sea with continuous running and towing needs scrutiny. The crew needs watchkeepers for bridge and Comms. to allow for 24 hr running. Chief Mate and a couple of seamen to watch the tow. Bridge lookouts to assist O.O.W.. Couple of engineers and ratings in the engineroom. Then a cook to cater.I reckon therefore doing 6 hrs on and 6 hrs off. 3 deck officers incl Captain, 2 Engineers , 2 mechanicians ,4 seamen, and a cook, about 12 all told.

  22. #341
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  24. #342
    2/Lt EUFighter's Avatar
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    Saw this earlier, seems she has been floating around for a few years and was even seen by HMS Protector who determined she had been abandoned.
    One question is how she managed to cross our entire EEZ without being spotted?

  25. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Saw this earlier, seems she has been floating around for a few years and was even seen by HMS Protector who determined she had been abandoned.
    One question is how she managed to cross our entire EEZ without being spotted?
    All the trawlers have taken shelter from Dennis, she is without power so no AIS, and she has quite a small profile. Easy to miss, and recent winds could have moved her quite fast. She was Abandoned and crew rescued in Oct 2018 I think.
    Those who participate in the Annual Cliff walk in Ballycotton next month should get a nice view of her. However I fear she will be the next Ranga or Samson.
    https://www.corkcoco.ie/en/news/grou...ip-ballycotton
    Published
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    Body
    Cork County Council has convened its Oil Spill Assessment Team as part of its Oil Spill Contingency Plan in response to the grounding of a cargo ship in Ballycotton this afternoon.

    The Council is currently liaising with the Irish Coastguard in relation to the pollution risk and with the Receiver of Wreck in relation ownership of the vessel which grounded at Ballyandreane, Ballycotton, Co. Cork today, February 16th.

    Cork County Council, which has responsibility for land based oil pollution risk, is continuing to monitor this ship in relation to any possible oil spillage or risk arising from cargo. The Council understands that the vessel was most likely diesel fuelled which poses less risk of pollution than heavy fuel oil. The exact risk level cannot be confirmed at this time. The ship will be inspected tomorrow in day light and from a land vantage point in order to access this further.

    Cork County Council does not believe that this wreck currently poses a risk to the Special Area of Conservation within the Ballymacoda/Ballycotton area.

    From a public safety perspective, Cork County Council is asking members of the public to stay away from the wreck location as it is located on a dangerous and inaccessible stretch of coastline and is in an unstable condition.

    Further details will issue as soon as the information becomes available.


    It will not be easy to get that off, or even dismantle her in situ. Possibly one of the more remote spots along that particular stretch of coastline.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
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  27. #344
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    https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2020/0...ost-ship-alta/

    To deal with such problems, the IMO adopted the Nairobi International Convention on the Removal of Wrecks in 2007. The responsibility to remove the wreck rests with its owner (Art 9) and it is liable for the costs incurred (Art 10). Ships must carry compulsory insurance policies or other financial security to cover wreck removal (Art 12) (liability for wreck removal is also commonly covered by ship's Protection and Indemnity insurance policies). The Convention entered into force in 2015 following ratification by sufficient signatory states: Ireland was not one of those states.

    The relevant Irish legislation is found in the Merchant Shipping (Salvage and Wreck) Act 1993 which gives effect to the 1989 Salvage Convention. Section 41 provides that the Minister of Transport, Tourism & Sport has the power to appoint an official known as a Receiver of the Wreck to organise the process of dealing with it. The 1976 Convention on Limitation of Liability for Maritime Claims was enacted into Irish law by the Merchant Shipping (Liability of Shipowners and Others) Act 1996 and the Sea Pollution (Hazardous Substances) Compensation Act 2005. Section 11 of the 1996 Act provides that the right to limit liability shall not apply to claims in respect of the raising, removal, destruction or rendering harmless of a ship which is sunk, wrecked, stranded or abandoned.

    However, a ship’s actual owners can be difficult to identify amongst a plethora of international registered companies. While reports suggested that a person purporting to represent the owner contacted the Irish authorities, their motivation is unclear.

    Leaving aside salty tales of pirates in the Caribbean and the Bermuda Triangle, time is moving on quickly for the Alta. While it might be relatively easy to remove the intact ship, it will inevitably become more difficult and more expensive and there will be environmental concerns if it is allowed to disintegrate. Moreover, it needs to be secured to prevent people boarding, as happened last week. Any prediction as to the State’s ability to recoup its expenses must be pessimistic.

  28. #345
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    The annual charity cliff walk is usually next weekend so expect large crowds gathering on the cliff to take photos and possibly climb aboard....
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  29. #346
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Is it not supposed to be on part of the cliffs that is not that readily accessible? Does the charity cliff walk go that way?

  30. #347
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    It is closely monitored through that area by coast guard and volunteers. They cut through the field.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  31. #348
    Chief Casey Ryback
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    So we have a Ghost Ship on the rocks and access trough a privately owned field , do I hear a TV series in the offering or maybe a Movie .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  33. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    Is it not supposed to be on part of the cliffs that is not that readily accessible? Does the charity cliff walk go that way?
    The ship is ashore East of the Ballyandreen beach head. Access is across privately owned fields. There is no coastal view except from the cliff edge beside the casualty with a marshy wellie type approach over electric fences and slippy underfoot. The Charity walk is over a man made cliff walk and doesnt go near ALTA. In my opinion when the USCG took the crew off in 2018 and left the ship to it's own devices in an approaching Hurricane, that after 12 months the ship may be technically derelict, that is, nobody has made an attempt to recover the ship into ownership hands. She was again sighted in April 2019 by the RN and left derelict once more. In February 2020 she wrecks on the Irish Coast on a rocky shore. Her outer hull is open along her inshore bilge area and if the tank tops are damaged then the ship is unfloatable except with very expensive repairs and tidal opportunity to remove her. More than likely she will be left to her own devices again.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 6th March 2020 at 08:25.

  34. #350
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    Is a recovery/refloat possible similar to what was done with.the Remains of Betelgeuse? Fill the void spaces with floating matter? Any attempt to tow off would only cause further damage, even if done during spring tides.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

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