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  1. #326
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    Hi all
    Apod, I fly and fix aircraft regularly in the real world so I know what I'm talking about.I also know from experience that certain heli bods have contrived to avoid serving the ground-pounding brethren, in the past.Apart from that, Goldie is right about shiny-kit syndrome.In six months time, no-one will give a second glance at the 139s.....Dev, I know perfectly well that all heli pilots have to be rated on type.Who would you rather have doing a confined-space extraction, an oul sweat with Al III/Dauphin/Gazelle experience or a newbie with 10 hours on type? Right now, the policy of having experienced skippers on the 139s will benefit the troops. Less chance of cracking up the heli or hurting anybody. the young guys will just have to wait their turn.
    regards
    GttC

  2. #327
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    Hi all
    Why would they bother training officers to fire the GPMGs, when they will never be tasked with the job? No other force in the world uses commissioned ranks to operate machine-guns as a primary task.
    Personally, I'd rather they photocopied the US Army's manuals for heliborne ops and learned from the genuine experts instead of the usual making it up as they go along.
    regards
    GttC

  3. #328
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Ok now this is starting to make sense.The usual defence forces policy of not trusting its own people.They put us through months of courses to qualify us to do our various jobs ,but when the crunch comes some officer always has to be there.
    Both the pilots we had last week were LT.sI now know why the 139,s werent used.Going to the glen was probably low priority for the capts/comdts flying the new birds.Dirty detail,give it to the juniors!

  4. #329
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    Hi there
    The 139s are not being used for landings on unapproved sites (a direct quote from one of the senior pilots) until greater experience is gained. The younger pilots are hours-building on the Alouettes as always.As for commissioned gunners, the RAF did away with them after the savage losses suffered by it's bomber aircrew in the Forties.The only viable reason for keeping an officer as a gunner is if he becomes the gunnery leader with regard to post-holding and continuity of training.
    regards
    GttC

  5. #330
    Some dodgy geezer Scorpy's Avatar
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    Both pilots were not Lts. If it is the job I'm thinking of (nice weather the first day, bloody fog the next) at least one was a captain. Nor are they hours building at the moment. Some of the remaining A3 qualified guys are there a long bloody time and it is because the 139 is sucking up so much manpower and attention, they cannot afford to have junior guys holding down the ops tasks. GTTC is right in one way, Officers are not suitable for DG appointments, but traditionally with any new task, one has to be trained to create all the doctrine, SOPs, manuals of training, syllabus etc. If he doesn't know the job, how can he do this? It is not the intention to continue training Officers to do this task routinely.

    At the moment, anyone looking for a helicopter is bloody lucky to get one, because the availability of ops pilots to carry them out is massively limited. People are working hard to get the new machines up and running. The amount of paperwork, research, trial and error (hopefully more trial), coupled with all the attention it is generating and the obvious interest from some very senior brass must be a serious handful to deal with. On top of that, ops staff are bending over backwards to try to accommodate everyone. 301 squadron is locally known as 'can do squadron'. It kills them to say no to a task for any reason, but reality bites. Too much bread, not enough butter. At the moment. Give it time, things will settle down and normal service will resume, hopefully with more capability, effeciency, safety and enthusiasm from all sides.

  6. #331
    ronin spike's Avatar
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    dunno Gttc, apparently one of said young bucks with just al3 experience showed up his more experienced seniors on the 139 'cos he had no pre conceptions about twin engine heli's
    It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you have.

  7. #332
    ronin spike's Avatar
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    as for hours building on the al3, the number of pilots still flying them has dwindled to single figures
    It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you have.

  8. #333
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    Hi Spike
    As an example, a senior pilot of my acquaintance was regraded on the Al.III,last year, after having come off the 135 list and is now on the 139. He was a bit puzzled at this change but didn't mind as it gave him more flight hours. Apart from all that, the organisation is a lot more mature now and is much more capable of absorbing the 139 into service, than it was in Dauphin days. Back then, it was amazing that the set-up even worked at all. I wish them luck and hope that the boots get their hearts desire to jump out of helicopters satisfied.
    Also, if the gunners do get a new badge, the unofficial motto of the old RAF gunners was "we aim, not to please".
    regards
    GttC

  9. #334
    Some dodgy geezer Scorpy's Avatar
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  10. #335
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    One of them was a captain?Mea culpa.I will have to bone up on my Air corps rank markings.:redface:

  11. #336
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    One of them was a captain?Mea culpa.I will have to bone up on my Air corps rank markings.:redface:
    In fairness, from a distance, with Air Corps rank markings on green sliders
    (for aircrew overalls), the difference between a Lt and a Capt is hard to tell
    (one bar thinner than the other for an Lt)

  12. #337
    2/Lt Bosco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truck Driver View Post
    In fairness, from a distance, with Air Corps rank markings on green sliders
    (for aircrew overalls), the difference between a Lt and a Capt is hard to tell
    (one bar thinner than the other for an Lt)
    hey all those air corps markings look crazy was chating to a bloke stripes and propellors and other such craziness and I spent more time trying to figure out what the hell they meant than talking to him.
    Lifes a bitch, so be her pimp!

  13. #338
    ronin spike's Avatar
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    Agree with you there about senior pilots flying the al3, but it's mainly senior pilots keeping their hand in and a few guys still to convert to the 139
    It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you have.

  14. #339
    ronin spike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Hi Spike
    As an example, a senior pilot of my acquaintance was regraded on the Al.III,last year, after having come off the 135 list and is now on the 139. He was a bit puzzled at this change but didn't mind as it gave him more flight hours. GttC
    Agree with you there it's mainly senior pilots keeping their hand in. and a few guys who have yet to convert to the 139,not junior by any means
    It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you have.

  15. #340
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    Air Corps helicopters to be deployed overseas?

    Is it intended that the new helicopters will be deployed overseas at some stage?

  16. #341
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    No
    To labour intensive-

    in that you have to bring maintance crew as well
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  17. #342
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    White paper says no.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  18. #343
    2/Lt Bam Bam's Avatar
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    DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THOSE HELIS COST!!!

    Jaysus, are you mad, we can't risk bringing them overseas. The paint might get scratched.
    It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

  19. #344
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Not to mention tyre wear...


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  20. #345
    Banned User Pod's Avatar
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    Probably the best way to stop them being used as MAT though....

  21. #346
    ronin spike's Avatar
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    Ha Ha Goldie, you so funny. you get twice as long if you rotate them
    It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you have.

  22. #347
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    what's the point?

    What's the point of paying enormous amounts of money for these things if they're never going to be deployed operationally?

  23. #348
    King Monkey FMolloy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carrington View Post
    What's the point of paying enormous amounts of money for these things if they're never going to be deployed operationally?
    The helis were bought to replace the AIII's & will take over their roles - namely army co-op, training & ATCP roles. All this was discussed in length earlier in the thread & elsewhere on the board, I suggest you look at what was said there.
    "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

  24. #349
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    training for what?

    Tks, I had a look at the White paper and the tender specs. posted earlier...

    The White paper covers the period 2000-2010. Like any plan, its relevance decreases as time goes by. In any event, planning should now be commencing for the next White Paper, due in a couple of years. The decisions of the previous White Paper should come up for review, so now is the time to have an input to the big decisions for the future...

    Given that the Army Air Corps will soon have eight modern hi-spec helicopters, which will have cost the taxpayer somewhere in the region of €80 million, it is hard to understand that none of them will ever be used in the Army's major operational deployment, which is overseas.

    According to the the tender specs.:
    "Primary taskings for the utility helicopter include:-
    a. Training and operations with Special Forces
    b. Security and aid to the civil power
    c. Reconnaissance team deployment and support
    d. Military exercises and manoeuvres and pre-manoeuvre training
    e. Infantry interoperability training
    f. Casevac
    g. Limited airlift, troop transport (up to eight equipped troops) and logistical support.

    The helicopters will also be required to perform the following tasks:-

    a. Air Ambulance
    b. Aid to the civil community
    c. VIP transport

    The helicopters will also be required to perform a significant amount of Air Corps training roles including:-

    a. Conversion training
    b. Winching and inland SAR training and operations.
    c. Night Vision Equipment (NVE) development and operations."

    The specs for the LUHs are similar.

    Most of the tasks relate to army support or training for those tasks. (The other tasks do not require eight helicopters to be available.) What is the point of having these helicopters if they are not to be deployed with the army?

  25. #350
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    So troops deploying overseas will have experience in operating in helis and will be able to transfer that knowledge to the area the are to operate in which may have air support from UN helis??
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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