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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by kermit View Post
    You have one(A Creche) at your place of employment do you not?
    No - I don't,
    No Beast so fell that knows no pity,
    No Beast am I, For I know no pity...

  2. #77
    Armchair Admiral ocean's Avatar
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    Hate towards top brass goes with the turf, hate towards non-seagoing personnel could somone tell me how much seatime the prinicpals associated with this report have done in the last 2, 4 or 6 years?

  3. #78
    NOC G-2's Avatar
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    Cool Not too sure now but

    I don't know but would I be at all stupid to suggest that the Nval service his drastically undermaned. I mean look at it, Morale is not as low as it is for no reason.
    The lack of enough personel to do the job is having the effect that when you come back from a patrol instead of getting the 2 weeks or most of it off before the next one (like most modern navies who tend to maintain 2 crews per ship on rotation basis) you spend almost all of it getting your ship ready again.
    I mean be realistic, at the very least if not 2 crews on rotation then at least have the ship readied by personel from the base rather than the crew who just arrived. It would certainly make a lot more sense morale wise. That is of course in my humble opinion.
    Hate towards top brass goes with the turf, hate towards non-seagoing personnel could somone tell me how much seatime the prinicpals associated with this report have done in the last 2, 4 or 6 years?
    Ocean's right a certain amount of animosity is bound to build up in the minds of somebody whos at sea a lot towards someone who isn't its just human nature. As for the top brass. A certain someone seems more concerned with his yearly bonus (20,000) rather than the morale and welfare of the men under his command.
    Last edited by G-2; 1st September 2006 at 23:21. Reason: add a bit
    Its a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark.

  4. #79
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    20k..is that all..thought it would have been more

    ...now theres an idea..apart from PDA why not pay ships crews a bonus,,,,,officers NCOs BODS!( love that word) a bonus for time spent at sea..would have guys queueing up to go to sea.! money may not solve everything..but it can make misery more pleasureable
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  5. #80
    Armchair Admiral ocean's Avatar
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    G-2 Noc - u have missed the point, who are the principals driving this report, what seatime do they have, and your point regarding yearly bonus is off the wall.

  6. #81
    Armchair Admiral ocean's Avatar
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    hpt - I agree but i understand money was offered and turned down - wow.

  7. #82
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    So what do they really want?

    fine to offer a report but as in all organisations there have to be reasonable soloutions to percieved problems. There has to be some negotiation..you can 't just knock a situatiom point blank and wait for the other side to offer a soloution..whole thing seems like a waste of time if they can't offer viable soloutions.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  8. #83
    NOC G-2's Avatar
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    Cool No

    your point regarding yearly bonus is off the wall.
    No Ocean I believe you may have missed what I mean here. The point is that a certain someone has no interest in reforming the system for the good of the general personel because hes too busy insuring he recieves his bonus. When a individuals main concern is their extra money rather than the welfare of their men its going to turn bad. If the said person (who shall remain nameless) had any interest in fixing what is clearly a very shabby system then he would be pressing for change. The case is the opposite. One could suppose that as long as he gets his take he doesn't care.
    Morale is terrible right now. more people are leaving than are joining which speaks volumes. That certain person should be pressing the government for more personel and better working conditions, but because he does not have to suffer the problems caused by the lack thereof does not bother. Oh and the bonus by the way for those who do not know is based upon the number of searchs and boardings conducted by the N.S. vessels each year so at pressent with the crappy conditions they manage to earn the s*** his bonus so why should he bother to upset that. No I do think the point of mr you know whos bonus is quite pertinent to "low morale" problem raised in the report.
    After all if your happy doing nothing why bother to do something (which would take effort) when you really have no inclination to bother.
    fine to offer a report but as in all organisations there have to be reasonable soloutions to percieved problems. There has to be some negotiation..you can 't just knock a situatiom point blank and wait for the other side to offer a soloution..whole thing seems like a waste of time if they can't offer viable soloutions.
    The solution........... Increase of numbers (a big increase) and change in working conditions yto attract new recruits and keeps the ones we already have. Of course how to implement such an idea. The bottom line is the defence budget needs a boost to allow for the change which the naval service needs to undergo. Without change (quickly) and at the rate people leave the time may be approaching where there is not enough personel to crew all 8 ships. Now that would be a disaster. Remind by the way hpt did that not happen at some stage in the past.
    Last edited by G-2; 2nd September 2006 at 14:33. Reason: to add a bit
    Its a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark.

  9. #84
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    Sloppy personalised attack on a totally dedicated individual. Sloppy work, G-2. And your "solution" should be submitted in the original crayon.

  10. #85
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    Cool

    Sloppy personalised attack on a totally dedicated individual.
    dedicated to what exactly, certainly not the welfare and well being of the enlisted men of the service. And it is directed at the said individual because that person must bear some blame for a situation they are doing nothing to rectify.
    Sloppy work, G-2. And your "solution" should be submitted in the original crayon.
    Sloppy, well you could try providing something to refute what I have said, instead you have resorted to throwing insults. Oh and I have yet to see you provide any solution at all, even a basic possible idea of how to solve the problem.
    Last edited by G-2; 2nd September 2006 at 20:29. Reason: to add a bit
    Its a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark.

  11. #86
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I think all along oceans points are coming from a very promising positive nature and he and other who exist are like minded evertale the reigns of power it could be a very different service for all those serving.

    If the people who submit the reports were to sit down and didcuss and nefgotiate the oints a workable soloution . Un fortuneatey in bothe camps there are parties dug in behind there own pkilosophys with very little chance to at least form a working body in order to sort these precieved problems out.l
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  12. #87
    NOC G-2's Avatar
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    Cool A lot to learn

    I hope this business fizzles out and dies...If you join the Navy, you accept sea going. If your personal (family) circumstances change or if the Service requires more of you than you can comfortably deliver then you should leave. Public campaigns of this nature are an embarassment. No sympathy here.
    You seem to think the problem is that people simply do not want to go to sea. That perception is incorrect. A person would not join the NS if they were adverse to the idea of going out on patrol, however the conditions under which seagoing exists in our NS is far from an acceptable arrangement. In no other professional modern navy (western anyway) does the crew of the ship come back from a patrol of whatever length and then spend the next two weeks (most of it anyway) prepping the ship to go on another patrol yet here we do.... Why?
    This is one of a number of problems contributing to low morale in the service. The reason I haul up mr you know who for this is because he is not making any effort to change this problem. I cited his yearly bonus to highlight the fact that he currently has no incentive to bother fixing this growing problem. If on a given year in the future he were not to receive said bonus because of personnel shortage he might sit up and notice, but that is unlikely to happen in his tenure.
    Sloppy personalised attack on a totally dedicated individual.
    related to him are you?
    Last edited by G-2; 2nd September 2006 at 22:27. Reason: spelling
    Its a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark.

  13. #88
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    G-2 NOC - I think there is plenty of talent in the NS to sort the problem. The attack on he who shall remain nameless is legitimate as long as it is objective and not personalised and focussed on specifics. It is however unfair to talk about bonus, everyone knows he has no interest in financial bonuses - and if you don't know that then check it out before you make the accusation again!

    On the positive side the fact that a Navy ship Ethna or Emer made it to the top 50 companies to work suggests that the solution should not be that difficult to find.

    Bottom line; I reckon on this, like most HR problems is communications and there can be no question but there is a need to reinforce the communications structure within the Irish Navy, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

    In the final analysis people must be sure that they know where they stand in terms of the "de facto" situation and what they want. They must note the time off they get which is personal to them, between them and where they ship and be prepared to trade that for a set allocation of probably a few extra days which will be tightly controlled and leave NO flexibility - that is where this is going.

    Hpt has touhced on it - what do people REALL Y want because there is a real dange of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
    Last edited by Farel'; 3rd September 2006 at 14:40.
    Fail to prepare....prepare to FAIL!

  14. #89
    Armchair Admiral ocean's Avatar
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    Even the dogs in the street know that he has no interest in bonus!

  15. #90
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    G2.

    I will ask that if you are making a point, you do so without making reference to identifiable individuals.
    Make your point, and keep it civil please. Do not refer to those who are unable to defend themselves here,unless you are willing to identify yourself.
    Veiled insults have no place on this website.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  16. #91
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    The top '50' list of jobs in Ireland mentioned above. What criteria was used? Statistics, turnover, workforce, etc. This is the same list that has McDonalds on it (somehow i dont believe the guy behind the McDonalds counter would agree) Is is purely up to the research of the writer!!!

    Were companies offered a write up if they paid for it as a form of advertising?

    I ask because in my work its easy to get listed in the top 10 and being deserved of the listing is not one of the reasons why, you just have to deal with or come in contact with the right people. That’s why I never believe these lists when I read them unless they can be backed up by fact. And until this can be done they shouldn’t be used as a source.

    Just like McDonalds its porbably a good job for managers, senior managers but not for the general staff.

    http://www.greatplacetowork-europe.com

  17. #92
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    tqon to make the list all of your employees complete a confidential survey which is independantly assessed - so its the workforce who vote a place as being A Great Place to Work - well done to McDonalds - What is your place of work? If you have been listed in the Top 10 its because the majority of the employees in your job voted it so - but then again maybe they got it wrong and its not a ggreat place to work - unless you are talking about some other list?
    Fail to prepare....prepare to FAIL!

  18. #93
    Armchair Admiral ocean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tqon View Post
    I wish i could explain to you what its like. Up until a few years ago, a sailor (be it officer, NCO, rating) said goodbye to his kids on a Monday morning before they went to school, and told their children they would be back Friday fortnight and sometimes Friday 3 weeks. That’s fine. It worked. That’s the navy life, a life at sea… …

    .........

    I know many of you can talk about sea days, but remember figures can be twisted to suit peoples requirements. Thank you to those that stood up for the report findings. You understand, you listened. Thank you for listening.
    In your input to the thread on 28th Aug you lead everyone to believe you were in the Navy - now today you are saying you are in a company that can easily buy its way into a Top 10 list, which is it? I hope you are not telling porkies just to try and rubbish the Navy's Achievement in having a ship listed in the Top 50 Great Places to Work?
    Last edited by ocean; 3rd September 2006 at 13:43.

  19. #94
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    QUOTE=tqon;133803]I wish i could explain to you what its like. ...Now you don’t say goodbye, because the young children get upset, the little lad doesn’t understand why you keep missing his football matches, how your never around. So you slip away. Its no longer a Monday that patrols start but perhaps a Saturday, when the children are home from school. So no you have missed the first weekend.

    Now a days its a 3 week patrol at least. Perhaps you do get in but alongside. But im not from Dublin, or Galway, or Waterford, Killybegs it doesn’t matter where I am today , im not at home, I may as well be at sea. Its a Saturday, that you get alongside, you have been at sea since the previous Saturday - thats 7 continuous days of work. But that’s a part of seagoing. Although your alongside its still a patrol, its still a working day but the powers that be are kind, they decide to make it a half day and by the way your back out to sea on Sunday evening with the tide. This is referred to by some as a weekend alongside!!!

    This pattern continues for 3 weeks so you have missed 3 full weekends. By the way the ship is only in for a week after the patrol. But your not off the moment the ship arrives. she is waiting to be re-fuelled then you have to wait for another ship to come out of the basin before you can go into it and so its 5 in the evening before you can leave but you have been up since 6. The next day your back in work but there for 24 hours on a duty.

    If your lucky your back in for 2 weeks. But within the two weeks in your are doing a duty one weekend so that only leaves on weekend free and you try to get the complimentary 2 days off if your lucky.

    Posted 01 Sep by Tqon

    I ask because in my work its easy to get listed in the top 10 and being deserved of the listing is not one of the reasons why, you just have to deal with or come in contact with the right people. That’s why I never believe these lists when I read them unless they can be backed up by fact. And until this can be done they shouldn’t be used as a source.

    I agree OCEAN seems to have a point Tqon - from what I have read you are changing your story depending on the point you want to make - to try to undermine the achievement of being listed in the Top 50 Great Places to Work by legitimate means is fair enough but I think you have a bit of explaining to do.. In trying to undermine the list you also de facto attempt to undermine the other companies on the list O2, Google and yes Mc Donalds.
    Last edited by Farel'; 3rd September 2006 at 13:40.
    Fail to prepare....prepare to FAIL!

  20. #95
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    I know people who work in Mc Donalds and love it. Just because the food, and the service is crap doesn't mean the employees don't enjoy working there.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  21. #96
    Armchair Admiral ocean's Avatar
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    Goldie - I know some of the staff and agree - they love the job.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-2 View Post
    I mean be realistic, at the very least if not 2 crews on rotation then at least have the ship readied by personel from the base rather than the crew who just arrived. It would certainly make a lot more sense morale wise. That is of course in my humble opinion.
    You have to manage this carefully, to avoid one crew dumping on the other.
    Last edited by Victor; 3rd September 2006 at 16:06.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farel' View Post
    I agree OCEAN seems to have a point Tqon - from what I have read you are changing your story depending on the point you want to make - to try to undermine the achievement of being listed in the Top 50 Great Places to Work by legitimate means is fair enough but I think you have a bit of explaining to do.. In trying to undermine the list you also de facto attempt to undermine the other companies on the list O2, Google and yes Mc Donalds.
    Agree. Will treat Tqon contributions lightly until he explains.

    G-2, it is not good enough to offer ' more pay, less work' as a solution and then cry when somebody fillets you.

    I am on record with my solution... stop complaining, serve your country, collect your pay or make another career move. No sympathy. Don't try to drag my navy back to an era that is past. You will never have your Monday to Friday, every weekend in Naval Service back. Sorry if that upsets you.

  24. #99
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-2 View Post
    In no other professional modern navy (western anyway) does the crew of the ship come back from a patrol of whatever length and then spend the next two weeks (most of it anyway) prepping the ship to go on another patrol yet here we do.... Why?
    Only 8 vessels, targets, lack of personnel.

    Why does it take 2 weeks to prepare a vessel for a 3 week patrol, apart from refueling, restocking the galley, general maintenance, what is involved that takes 2 weeks?

    They could do everything the first week and then get either 1 weeks leave / 1 week 9-5.

  25. #100
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    I dont have to explain myself I never said I was in the Navy! Its up to you if you assumed it. People seem to be assuming an lot on this board without proof.

    If i want you to know my exact work ill tell but i dont, and why does it matter. Perhaps I am, perhaps i am not, and perhaps like many i work a second job as well, perhaps i know people in the Navy perhaps someone asked me to post this so they could stay anonymous. I dont have to explain who I am or what i do. Are those on the board not entitled to anonymity(think i spelt that one right not sure) if they so choose?

    I have put forward a point of view in one statement. I have contradicted or insulted no one.

    In the second post i have asked a question, but no one has answered it, insulted me for the question yes but answered my question no. So until i know exactly how this list is compiled i cannot rely on its contents, its not worth the paper its written on. I dont care if it undermines any of the companies on the list I care about the truth, no matter whos toes it steps on.

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