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Thread: Drydocking?

  1. #276
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    I think we look at it from the wrong perspective. While it has been proven that successive governments have been 'sea blind' since the inception of the state looking at alternatives should be focused on private investment . i.e where it becomes viable for private entities to own dry docking and berthage and for the state to lease them back at reasonable cost, therefore reducing the capital investment the state makes. Bantry as a Naval facility has always had merit but its isolation from the major road networks makes it unattractive as do several other west coast locations
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  3. #277
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The privatisation of key state facilities/provisions has led to a dilution of availability, often controlled by entities, outside the country, and with a different agenda. Strategic infrastructure needs to be in control of the State. Every Navy should, within it's own territory, have ports of refuge in order to create reserves and/or move assets. The rush to turn historic ports into Office, accommodation, and leisure hubs, without making adequate alternative provisions for marine traffic is an illustration of the Agenda pursued by others not properly controlled
    But we are at a place where the government refuse to invest in what should be done to sustain what we have and we already send vessels to what is a private facility for dry docking. Military and Civilians can be operated in tandem as is demonstrated in the USA where various air force units are based at civilian airports and share air traffic and firefighting facilities.

    Unfortunately the Naval service is not big enough to warrant entire new build facilities for their sole use and the only prospect of progression is in a partnership role . Local government will milk every drop out of maritime facilities for recreation etc and would be seen to be more profitable therefore more sustainable into the future that stand alone Naval Military facilities.

    Ryanair without success have pushed this point with Baldonnell for years and while I disagree with many aspects of Ryanair models, I believe there has always been merit in the shared location approach which did work with Irish Steel and the Naval Service in years gone by.

    Indeed if the empire building and politics could be taken out of the equation there could be a viable prospect of inter agency co location.
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  5. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    But we are at a place where the government refuse to invest in what should be done to sustain what we have and we already send vessels to what is a private facility for dry docking. Military and Civilians can be operated in tandem as is demonstrated in the USA where various air force units are based at civilian airports and share air traffic and firefighting facilities.

    Unfortunately the Naval service is not big enough to warrant entire new build facilities for their sole use and the only prospect of progression is in a partnership role . Local government will milk every drop out of maritime facilities for recreation etc and would be seen to be more profitable therefore more sustainable into the future that stand alone Naval Military facilities.

    Ryanair without success have pushed this point with Baldonnell for years and while I disagree with many aspects of Ryanair models, I believe there has always been merit in the shared location approach which did work with Irish Steel and the Naval Service in years gone by.

    Indeed if the empire building and politics could be taken out of the equation there could be a viable prospect of inter agency co location.
    The sharing of Haulbowline island with Irish Steel Holdings was always an imposition of political origin. Placing any civilian project within a small naval base, whether a steel mill or a public park, is a derisory view of basic security. Lemass and Irish Shipping management were aware of the need for a guaranteed repair facility for up to 19 Ocean going ships, during WW11 , so they took over Cork Dockyard. Right now we are removing thousands of metres of quay wall without providing adequate replacements. Irelands major ports are being butchered or neglected, while repair facilities are relegated to being provided by journeyman companies.

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  7. #279
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    For dual use airports we do no have to look far, the Melsbroek Air Base is on the northern side of Brussels Intl Airport. Airports work as they are tightly secured areas, no one can easily access the military area from the civilian. If we did ever get an Air Force then this would be an option for some of the under utilised airports, such as Shannon or Connacht. As for Haulbowline Island the reasoning behind having a public park is beyond me. When the base was first set-up it was an ideal secure solution for a naval base. It was a mistake to have located a civilian business on the same island and that mistake continues today.

    As far as ports are concerned we need to realise that the majority of harbours around the country are not suitable for modern shipping. The days of small ships are gone, the days of a ship spending days in a port are gone, the days of stevedores & longshoremen are gone. Today most cargo rolls off ships or is lifted off in containers. The bulk that is loaded/off loaded in no longer done by manpower. While we might mourn the passing of ports such as Bantry, those harbours were tidal at best as so shallow that even at high tide a modern ship could not berth. Although having said that I would have hoped that as an island nation we would have had a better strategic plan for all things maritime, but just look at how warmly the plan for a bridge across the Northern Channel between Scotland and NI.

    If we are honest we are down to a 7 ship fleet and it does not look like that will rise again anytime soon. Does that justify a naval dockyard facility? What would be the strategic need for such a facility? Can this not be done at another friendly EU yard? Can we not tender for such a facility?
    Last edited by EUFighter; 29th December 2019 at 22:12.

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  9. #280
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    If a ship is "dead in the water" towing costs to another EU repair facility can be excessively expensive and full of red tape.
    These are armed vessels. You have to de-arm them before going overseas for repairs.
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  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    If a ship is "dead in the water" towing costs to another EU repair facility can be excessively expensive and full of red tape.
    These are armed vessels. You have to de-arm them before going overseas for repairs.
    Is the one-off towing costs from Cork to Brest more than the cost of maintaining a dedicated repair facility?
    And how often would such a tow be needed?

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  13. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    For dual use airports we do no have to look far, the Melsbroek Air Base is on the northern side of Brussels Intl Airport. Airports work as they are tightly secured areas, no one can easily access the military area from the civilian. If we did ever get an Air Force then this would be an option for some of the under utilised airports, such as Shannon or Connacht. As for Haulbowline Island the reasoning behind having a public park is beyond me. When the base was first set-up it was an ideal secure solution for a naval base. It was a mistake to have located a civilian business on the same island and that mistake continues today.

    As far as ports are concerned we need to realise that the majority of harbours around the country are not suitable for modern shipping. The days of small ships are gone, the days of a ship spending days in a port are gone, the days of stevedores & longshoremen are gone. Today most cargo rolls off ships or is lifted off in containers. The bulk that is loaded/off loaded in no longer done by manpower. While we might mourn the passing of ports such as Bantry, those harbours were tidal at best as so shallow that even at high tide a modern ship could not berth. Although having said that I would have hoped that as an island nation we would have had a better strategic plan for all things maritime, but just look at how warmly the plan for a bridge across the Northern Channel between Scotland and NI.

    If we are honest we are down to a 7 ship fleet and it does not look like that will rise again anytime soon. Does that justify a naval dockyard facility? What would be the strategic need for such a facility? Can this not be done at another friendly EU yard? Can we not tender for such a facility?
    That "plan" gets the reaction it's got because it's a fecking stupid idea from a man who has previous for fantasy ideas like this that never come to pass, let alone the utter lack of a use/business case for it.

    As for the changes in the ports, you are right that times have changed and we see Dublin, Cork and Waterford building up their capacity to provide the needed facilities, though I suppose there is some degree of merit to the argument floated by the Architects about building a new Port between Dublin and Belfast and reusing the current footprint.

    Making it a public Park on Haulbowline is stupid, though I have little doubt if the green area was left you'd have plenty of complaints that it wasn't used for the Public, but yes putting Steel where it was was stupid from start to finish. As to having a Naval Dockyard, lets be utterly realistic with where we are or likely to be in terms of defence, the use case for it isn't there, better to maybe engage more with Doyle for investing in the Cobh Yard.

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  15. #283
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    If a ship is "dead in the water" towing costs to another EU repair facility can be excessively expensive and full of red tape.
    These are armed vessels. You have to de-arm them before going overseas for repairs.
    Has to be done before they enter civilian facilities any way... the nightmare that is de ammunitioning.

    Placing any civilian project within a small naval base, whether a steel mill or a public park, is a derisory view of basic security.
    In the case of Haulbowline it is indeed a limited environment but in the days of drones, satellite imagery and indeed the internet how secure is any military facility and how secure does it need to be in that the security required in days of old on Haulbowline at the height of any terrorist threat was actually comical.

    If we are honest we are down to a 7 ship fleet and it does not look like that will rise again anytime soon. Does that justify a naval dockyard facility? What would be the strategic need for such a facility? Can this not be done at another friendly EU yard? Can we not tender for such a facility?
    I'm in absolute agreement but we do need a dry docking facility on the Island of Ireland as much as we need a EPV capacity to be able to provide husbandry to ships using shipping lanes off our coast, indeed Bantry has often been used as a have for damaged ships in the past so why not capitalize on the ports of the south coast's proximity to the shipping lanes and again offer it out to private contract with a naval capacity inbuilt, as the state is continually failing to its obligations to the maritime sector.

    If we did ever get an Air Force then this would be an option for some of the under utilised airports, such as Shannon or Connacht
    The Weather on the west coast has always been the primary concern around locating a training facility and again weather wise those on the south coast are suboptimal during certain times of the year so a mid lands location would possibly be preferable for a stand alone facility upgrading facilities at the like of Waterford could be an option

    Irelands major ports are being butchered or neglected, while repair facilities are relegated to being provided by journeyman companies.
    Dublin is a nightmare, Cork is catching up But re location to Foynes or Waterford to include dockyard facilities should be seriously looked at before they become over commercialised and beyond teach of the Defence sector, but again I would suggest co location of army units if indeed to only increase security aspect , as a my locations are becoming isolated within city locations and making it very difficult to provide accommodation for those expected to live in such locations.

    The advantages of greenfield sites with options to service the ships, people and even aircraft should be seriously considered or we will end up with a conglomerate of isolated facilities with impossible needs for expansion requirements
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 29th December 2019 at 23:09.
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  16. #284
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    Still much more convenient to de ammo a vessel in need of repair in an irish port. Ideally haulbowline.
    Co locating with army units, is a stepping stone to losing another military facility. Best not doing that.
    With regards to Bantry bay, a business based on beer island has become very proactive in expanding his salvage expertise, and now owns a number of long range tugs. His location is not far from the normal naval Anchorage.
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  18. #285
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Why is a park going onto Haulbowline?

    Because it is a contaminated waste site that includes radioactive waste

  19. #286
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    No, the radioactive waste went elsewhere. This is just where toxic by products of the steel industry were dumped. When confined they pose no hazard, however they can be harmful to human health if they become airborne in dust form, or make their way into the water supply.
    Still no sign of said park opening to public.
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  21. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Why is a park going onto Haulbowline?

    Because it is a contaminated waste site that includes radioactive waste
    Making it a public/civic amenity was the only way to sell the cost of the clean up to Joe Public Tax Payers , no political gain for anyone if it was done for the sake of the Naval Service .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  23. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    No, the radioactive waste went elsewhere. This is just where toxic by products of the steel industry were dumped. When confined they pose no hazard, however they can be harmful to human health if they become airborne in dust form, or make their way into the water supply.
    Still no sign of said park opening to public.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    Making it a public/civic amenity was the only way to sell the cost of the clean up to Joe Public Tax Payers , no political gain for anyone if it was done for the sake of the Naval Service .
    Sorry misread it no long and radioactive waste on site but hazardous
    https://www.corkcoco.ie/sites/defaul...l%20Report.pdf

  24. #289
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    There are more accurate environmental surveys available for the site.
    When back at PC I will share.
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  26. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Sorry misread it no long and radioactive waste on site but hazardous
    https://www.corkcoco.ie/sites/defaul...l%20Report.pdf
    This argument on the "Park" is a waste of time as we are where we are in it's environmental hazards. It's progression as a potential hazard should be monitored at appropriate intervals and issued in clear terms and not buried in factual history.
    The drydock seems to upset some people but in general not sailors. The fact is we have a physical drydock , of suitable dimensions , in the Naval base. We need to re-instate it's use to significantly increase our ability to maintain our own ships. The drydock may need a couple of specialists but in general worked by existing Dockyard and Naval personnel. All naval vessels going into stand down for drydock or leave usually de-ammunitions, for security and safety reasons.
    Our current fleet especially, the 4 P60 class, has the potential to weaken the Navy. Ships of the same build vintage need to be managed to maintain continuity-losing 4 ships to retirement within a few years of each other, in the future , will need examination and planning for that event now.

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  28. #291
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    Very true, the P20s were all well past retirement age before a decision was made to replace them, even though it had been flagged in one of the many VFM reports ten years in advance of their expected end of life.
    As a rule of thumb, the captain should be older than the ship...
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  29. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laners View Post
    Making it a public/civic amenity was the only way to sell the cost of the clean up to Joe Public Tax Payers , no political gain for anyone if it was done for the sake of the Naval Service .
    It's a pretty sad indication of joe public when you have to find a way to spin the clean up a toxic dump.....

  30. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Very true, the P20s were all well past retirement age before a decision was made to replace them, even though it had been flagged in one of the many VFM reports ten years in advance of their expected end of life.
    As a rule of thumb, the captain should be older than the ship...
    In any event it is one of those professions that experience pays off in tricky situations--especially manoeuvring. With naval repair schedules , and half-life refits, we should get up to 40 years from our vessels. The last Captain of P64 might be a new infant now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post

    As for the changes in the ports, you are right that times have changed and we see Dublin, Cork and Waterford building up their capacity to provide the needed facilities, though I suppose there is some degree of merit to the argument floated by the Architects about building a new Port between Dublin and Belfast and reusing the current footprint.
    With Brexit traffic to the UK is going to be less, not more. I see no point in a new short sea port for the Irish Sea. Run the trains into Rosslare Europort again and if we need more cargo capacity, I'd extend Belview.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    With Brexit traffic to the UK is going to be less, not more. I see no point in a new short sea port for the Irish Sea. Run the trains into Rosslare Europort again and if we need more cargo capacity, I'd extend Belview.
    Even with Brexit there will be traffic between Ireland and GB, the point they were making was the chance to design a new build port while at the same time freeing up a massive footprint inside the Capital. And they aren't wrong, Dublin Port is going to face capacity issues going forward no matter what they do.

  33. #296
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    Regional development of course would aid the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky42 View Post
    Even with Brexit there will be traffic between Ireland and GB, the point they were making was the chance to design a new build port while at the same time freeing up a massive footprint inside the Capital. And they aren't wrong, Dublin Port is going to face capacity issues going forward no matter what they do.
    Currently Dublin port is gaining traffic to the continent. I see traffic to the continent gaining momentum and Irish Sea not so much. I'd much rather develop a port further south.

  35. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Currently Dublin port is gaining traffic to the continent. I see traffic to the continent gaining momentum and Irish Sea not so much. I'd much rather develop a port further south.
    Down south has Rosslare and Cork already, the center of population/economy is on the East coast from Belfast to Dublin. Makes more sense to build up capacity there.

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  37. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Currently Dublin port is gaining traffic to the continent. I see traffic to the continent gaining momentum and Irish Sea not so much. I'd much rather develop a port further south.
    Dublin is gaining continental traffic because Irish Ferries shifted all their continental traffic to it , not because hauliers wanted it . On the Irish Sea routes Stena has introduced the first of it's new class of ferry the E Flexer on Dublin to Holyhead (Stena Estrid ) with two more to follow for their Belfast to Liverpool route , one of which is crossing the Indian Ocean at the moment from it's builders in China ( Stena Edda ) . Irish Ferries are also close to having a new ferry built by FSG in Germany similar to the new WB Yeats but bigger with more freight space and less passenger cabins than the Yeats which will be for Dublin to Holyhead and will be the largest ferry in the world based on lane metres . It would seem that business minded people of Stena and Irish Ferries seem to think that the Irish Sea traffic has some more to give .
    Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

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  39. #300
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    The ships are not tied to particular routes that is just scheduling (with a relatively small infrastructure development).

    Why are the Dublin routes the ones being used? Most business comes from the greater Dublin area

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