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Thread: Naval weaponry

  1. #351
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    French Navy Starts Trials of Variable Depth Sonar aboard Loire-class Offshore Support Vessel
    The French Navy (Marine Nationale) and French Armament General Directorate (DGA) started trials of the Thales CAPTAS-1 variable depth sonar (VDS) aboard Loire-class offshore support and assistance vessel (BSAM) "Garonne" off Brest, in Brittany.

    Naval News first learned about plans to experiment the compact VDS solution aboard the multipurpose vessel during DSEI 2019, while covering Garonne, the fourth and final vessel of the Loire-class.

    “There is some project to deploy a towed sonar onboard [Garonne] which would be placed into a container” LT Cmdr Congues, Garonne‘s Commanding Officer, told Naval News during the event in September last year
    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...upport-vessel/

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  3. #352
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    A US Navy team deployed a type of sonar, on P31, with stern A-Frame, and Flight deck mounted winch to map the debris field of the Air India plane. It was a mix of graphics and echo tracing identifying case shaped objects etc. Done then should be still doable as things now are miniaturised.

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  5. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    A US Navy team deployed a type of sonar, on P31, with stern A-Frame, and Flight deck mounted winch to map the debris field of the Air India plane. It was a mix of graphics and echo tracing identifying case shaped objects etc. Done then should be still doable as things now are miniaturised.
    I wonder if that team included Robert Ballard (of Titanic Fame) who was in the US Naval Reserve at the time, and worked on a number of special projects for them while he was looking for the Titanic.
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  7. #354
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    Just to give an impression what is possible, here is a view of the aft deck of the Swedish Goteborg class corvettes. They are half the size of the Peacock with a beam of just 8m. Yet they manage to pack a VDS sonar, two sets of mine/depth charge rails as well as a Rheinmetall MASS (not shown) into this small area. The primary ASW armament being 400mm SLWT torpedo tubes. In addition their is also a Hull Mounted Sonar.

    Goteborg_ASW.jpg

    Add a UAV like the Skeldar V-200 or Camcopter S-100 and it would be a nice upgrade for the aft deck of the P60 class.

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  9. #355
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    As I had a bit of time on my hands I had a go at incorporating as much of the recent discussions into my P60 Ultimate Refit.
    It is just a bit of fun, outfit is only a suggestion.

    P60 Ultimate.jpg

    If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it!!

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  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    As I had a bit of time on my hands I had a go at incorporating as much of the recent discussions into my P60 Ultimate Refit.
    It is just a bit of fun, outfit is only a suggestion.

    P60 Ultimate.jpg

    If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it!!

    Ns-100, not Sea Giraffe AMB! And add Strales to the 76mm. And a full ECM//ECCM//ESM//SIGINT suite

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    What would be the point of CAPTAS on Pxx? If they spotted a sub what could they do about it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    Ns-100, not Sea Giraffe AMB! And add Strales to the 76mm. And a full ECM//ECCM//ESM//SIGINT suite
    When I was doing this I always kept in-mind that it is a modification to a vessel that is already built, if it was in the design stage a few things would be different. With that the limitation I have tried to upgrade to the next level, a) to add air and sub-surface capabilities, b) to upgrade the weapon systems to allow deployment to low intensity conflict areas like a mission off the coast of Yemen.

    The NS-100 is an excellent radar but it is bigger and more expensive than the Sea Giraffe AMB or the Scanter 4100 the latter of which was the most likely in the original design case for the mast. If the budget was available it could be an option but IMHO without a missile system like Sea Ceptor (CAMM) that the added capability is wasted.

    The Strales debate has been very hard on this forum. Strales is the kit added to the OTO Melara to give CW guidance for the Dart round. The Sea Eagle FCRO can provide this, I suspect but could be wrong but it might be able to do this for several rounds. Before adding the Strales kit instead of having the old Sea Eagle FCEO installed aft I would prefer a second FCRO to give 360deg cover. Thus the Dart rounds could still be used.

    The installation of the Sea Snake 30 is not just to replace the Rhinos but to give more protection close in with its MPDS & KETF rounds and a local EO fire control. When coupled to the Sea Eagle FCRO it can better engage aerial targets.

    As for EW, the sky is the limit but at a minimum something like the Vigile system is needed.

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  15. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graylion View Post
    What would be the point of CAPTAS on Pxx? If they spotted a sub what could they do about it?
    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Would it still be a Pxx? The letter may have to change to a K!
    As for what would they do if they spotted a sub, that depends.
    Firstly track and identify, at present we have little to no idea of the underwater traffic around our coasts.
    If however they are somewhere they should not be and there is a need to engage, there I am still not totally sure. For a kill there is on the starboard side a Mk32 triple ASW torpedo launcher. However I still like that the Swedes and Finns still retain rails for depth charges; not to kill but to "fire a warning shot". Drop one close enough to indicate you want them to surface but not so close to kill.
    Like the need for medium/long range shore based primary radar. You need to be able to show that there is a problem first, you can’t send up the fighters to intercept something that you don’t know is there.

    Torpedoes would probably be more appropriate. Small Explosives charges could be used as “warning spots” as is done for swimmers

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  17. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Torpedoes would probably be more appropriate. Small Explosives charges could be used as “warning spots” as is done for swimmers
    The question of how to fire a warning shot to a sub is an interesting one. There is depth charges but in the end I did not add them as they would endanger the VDS & TAS that would most likely still be deployed.

    My thoughts then go to Air Burst Munitions for the 40mm HK GMG, they basically rely on a timed fusing system. The question would be could this be programmed to explode after entering the water and sinking to a depth of saw 10m? Technically this should be possible, it might mean that it is a special round to cope with hitting the water without disintegrating but that should be manageable as they are designed to go through walls without exploding.

    Also adding the HK GMG might be better for engaging fast small targets than the M2.

  18. #361
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    The notion of firing "warning shots" at errant subs is the same as the gunner on a Panhard in Lebanon, back in the day deciding to fire a warning shot at the Israeli tank, instead of the 90mm HEAT that it got.
    If you fire a warning shot, you have to be ready for an escalation.
    In Anti Submarine Warfare, the locating Active Sonar Ping is enough to get the message to subs.

    There is a level of escalation here, and firing shots is, same as with a rifle, the absolute last level. You better have ASROC or Torpedo, otherwise you could find yourself escalating to a level you cannot answer.
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  20. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The notion of firing "warning shots" at errant subs is the same as the gunner on a Panhard in Lebanon, back in the day deciding to fire a warning shot at the Israeli tank, instead of the 90mm HEAT that it got.
    If you fire a warning shot, you have to be ready for an escalation.
    In Anti Submarine Warfare, the locating Active Sonar Ping is enough to get the message to subs.

    There is a level of escalation here, and firing shots is, same as with a rifle, the absolute last level. You better have ASROC or Torpedo, otherwise you could find yourself escalating to a level you cannot answer.
    AFAIK the sonar "ping" of WW2 movies is something only to be used in Hollywood. Most modern active sonars operate more like radar and at a frequency that humans cannot hear. There would have to be agreed sonar protocols that sonar operators would be able to use as "warning shots".

    As for escalation that is the reason for the Mk32 tubes, so 12.75inch lightweight torpedoes can be fired. Although that raises the question should anti-torpedo measures be installed?

  21. #363
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    The active ping is very much there, just not like in "The Cruel Sea". Active ping is directional and tells the subs sensor operator that they have been detected.
    Indeed it is not uncommon for, during wargames, once detected, the hunted will suffer the sound of celebratory music played down the system, for the sensor operator to hear.

    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
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  23. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    The active ping is very much there, just not like in "The Cruel Sea". Active ping is directional and tells the subs sensor operator that they have been detected.
    Indeed it is not uncommon for, during wargames, once detected, the hunted will suffer the sound of celebratory music played down the system, for the sensor operator to hear.

    So the Elbonian sub knows that they have been detected by active sonar, so how do they know that they are requested to surface?
    They might say "OK, the Irish know we are here but we continue to do what we want".
    They might be sitting next to the interconnector to France and we would rather they did not.
    Is there a world wide agreed protocol that if a sub is targeted by active sonar that this is a request for them to surface?
    (I know the same could be said of dropping explosives over the side.)

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  25. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    AFAIK the sonar "ping" of WW2 movies is something only to be used in Hollywood. Most modern active sonars operate more like radar and at a frequency that humans cannot hear. There would have to be agreed sonar protocols that sonar operators would be able to use as "warning shots".

    As for escalation that is the reason for the Mk32 tubes, so 12.75inch lightweight torpedoes can be fired. Although that raises the question should anti-torpedo measures be installed?
    In present day ASW it is more usual to use passive sonar to listen for intruders and often the particular noise that a particular submarine might make. The returns are analysed by the ships library of known acoustic noises and can identify submarines and surface ships at a distance of many miles. You can then bang off a standard message to HQ,and eventually DFA can pass the list of identified Subs to the Russian or other Embassy. They will then know that we know.

  26. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    In present day ASW it is more usual to use passive sonar to listen for intruders and often the particular noise that a particular submarine might make. The returns are analysed by the ships library of known acoustic noises and can identify submarines and surface ships at a distance of many miles. You can then bang off a standard message to HQ,and eventually DFA can pass the list of identified Subs to the Russian or other Embassy. They will then know that we know.
    That still does not answer the question, "how do you fire a warning shot to a sub, that will force them to surface and stop"?

    An acoustic library is one of the most prized secrets that a navy can have, one that takes many years to build and large efforts to maintain. It is usually shared with allies but as we are a non-aligned neutral country we might only get a very small library. So while a USN vessel might be able to identify not only every sub type and even some individual subs this will not be the case for us.

    Here is the scenario.

    A few weeks ago a small Irish fishing boat 50nm west of Achill Island was pulled under by a submarine. We suspect the sub was from Elbonia, DFA has called the Elbonian embassy to complain, they insist that it was not their sub.
    Today you are skipper of one of our newly upgraded K60 class, another fishing boat has been pulled under near you. ICG has rescued all the crew and you have a suspect sub on your sonar. DFA has again called the Elbonian embassy and have received the same reply "it wasn't us". What options have you?

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  28. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    That still does not answer the question, "how do you fire a warning shot to a sub, that will force them to surface and stop"?

    An acoustic library is one of the most prized secrets that a navy can have, one that takes many years to build and large efforts to maintain. It is usually shared with allies but as we are a non-aligned neutral country we might only get a very small library. So while a USN vessel might be able to identify not only every sub type and even some individual subs this will not be the case for us.

    Here is the scenario.

    A few weeks ago a small Irish fishing boat 50nm west of Achill Island was pulled under by a submarine. We suspect the sub was from Elbonia, DFA has called the Elbonian embassy to complain, they insist that it was not their sub.
    Today you are skipper of one of our newly upgraded K60 class, another fishing boat has been pulled under near you. ICG has rescued all the crew and you have a suspect sub on your sonar. DFA has again called the Elbonian embassy and have received the same reply "it wasn't us". What options have you?
    First, no commander has authority to start WW111. Second advise fishing vessels of the danger in the area, of which by now they are aware. Thirdly, toss over a couple of acoustic grenades to let the submarine know your there. lastly inform relevant embassy by DFA that one of their craft may be in danger with a trawler wrapped around their vessel and will they require you to stand by under SOLAS/UNCLOS, or may you proceed.

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  30. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    First, no commander has authority to start WW111. Second advise fishing vessels of the danger in the area, of which by now they are aware. Thirdly, toss over a couple of acoustic grenades to let the submarine know your there. lastly inform relevant embassy by DFA that one of their craft may be in danger with a trawler wrapped around their vessel and will they require you to stand by under SOLAS/UNCLOS, or may you proceed.
    Thankfully Elbonia is not Russia and that the incidents of subs causing the loss of fishing vessels is not so common as it once was. It was just to see what the options could be. If there is a surface vessel there are plenty of options but under sea not so many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Thankfully Elbonia is not Russia and that the incidents of subs causing the loss of fishing vessels is not so common as it once was. It was just to see what the options could be. If there is a surface vessel there are plenty of options but under sea not so many.
    Were they Russian probably much closer to home

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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Thankfully Elbonia is not Russia and that the incidents of subs causing the loss of fishing vessels is not so common as it once was. It was just to see what the options could be. If there is a surface vessel there are plenty of options but under sea not so many.
    Lads I think you are putting too much faith in Elbonia

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    https://www.independent.ie/videos/pa...-39450891.html

    In this recent video, it shows the various weapons used on the P60 class being fired.

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