Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Naval weaponry

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    How do you load it though?

    At least the older model can be reloaded from beneath under the cover of a deck. 38 rounds isn't exactly a six shooter, of course, but you have to have some other exposed hoist or deck storage for reloading those 2 19 round clips, with no real option for changing your ammo type mid shoot. Fine if you just need it for AAA though.
    The Sovraponte was intended in the first line to be a CIWS fitted with the Strales system. Like some other CIWS this means being loaded on deck, the same as the Phalanx, Millennium gun and some others. It now comes in two versions, the original not-so-good-looking version and the new super ugly stealth version as fitted to the new Italian PPA multi purpose patrol vessels.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
      The Sovaponte version of the 76 is deck mounted with no penetration. And AFAIK the Strales cupola can be retrofitted to any 76, but don't quote me on it. I still think this would be the way to go if you want to upgrade the OPVs
      The Strales upgrades is offered for new build guns. It would be a major change to a basic 76/62 as there are a lot of internal parts that need to be changed. Leonardo could offer such an upgrade but it would be a factory upgrade and might be cheaper to buy a new one instead.

      Also to get the advantage of the Strales system a X-band radar and associated FCS would be needed for detection and designation of a target. The radar on the mount is only an tracking/illumination.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        How do you load it though?

        At least the older model can be reloaded from beneath under the cover of a deck. 38 rounds isn't exactly a six shooter, of course, but you have to have some other exposed hoist or deck storage for reloading those 2 19 round clips, with no real option for changing your ammo type mid shoot. Fine if you just need it for AAA though.
        With difficulty?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
          The Sovraponte was intended in the first line to be a CIWS fitted with the Strales system. Like some other CIWS this means being loaded on deck, the same as the Phalanx, Millennium gun and some others. It now comes in two versions, the original not-so-good-looking version and the new super ugly stealth version as fitted to the new Italian PPA multi purpose patrol vessels.
          No appreciation for SF design! It is supposed to weigh less than Phalanx BTW

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
            No appreciation for SF design! It is supposed to weigh less than Phalanx BTW


            Can we start off by saying that the Leonardo 76mm Strales system and variants are a Multirole weapon system that has capabilities in the anti-surface, anti-missile, and can be used for hitting shore targets. They are loaded through a revolving magazine system and require two loaders to fill the magazine. Ammunition choices are computor controlled depending on the target selected--surface or air. It has a sustainable fire rate of 120 rounds per minute but would not be classed as a CIWS such as Phalanx etc.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
              Can we start off by saying that the Leonardo 76mm Strales system and variants are a Multirole weapon system that has capabilities in the anti-surface, anti-missile, and can be used for hitting shore targets. They are loaded through a revolving magazine system and require two loaders to fill the magazine. Ammunition choices are computor controlled depending on the target selected--surface or air. It has a sustainable fire rate of 120 rounds per minute but would not be classed as a CIWS such as Phalanx etc.
              The Strales system is an add-on system to be used with the DART guided munition. The RF unit of the Strales provides guidance and targeting updates to the projectile inflight.
              It can be ordered on the 76/62mm Super Rapido gun mount or the Sovraporte mount.
              Leonardo market the Strales/DART system for protection against small fast surface threats as well as low flying threats such as ASMs.
              Naturally with the addition of a regular fuse programming unit on the mount the regular 3AP munitions can also be used.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                The Strales system is an add-on system to be used with the DART guided munition. The RF unit of the Strales provides guidance and targeting updates to the projectile inflight.
                It can be ordered on the 76/62mm Super Rapido gun mount or the Sovraporte mount.
                Leonardo market the Strales/DART system for protection against small fast surface threats as well as low flying threats such as ASMs.
                Naturally with the addition of a regular fuse programming unit on the mount the regular 3AP munitions can also be used.
                Suffice it to say if we want a capability of using a 76mm OTO-Melara integrated with a SELEX FCS system AND use latest ammunition types including DART then we must Change to at least 76mm SR. The guns cost around 2m usd or less depending on the number ordered . We would need 6 plus 1 for training. The exchanged guns could be refurbished and upgraded where possible for sale or fitting two to the MRV with two 30mm in CIWS roles.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                  The Strales system is an add-on system to be used with the DART guided munition. The RF unit of the Strales provides guidance and targeting updates to the projectile inflight.
                  It can be ordered on the 76/62mm Super Rapido gun mount or the Sovraporte mount.
                  Leonardo market the Strales/DART system for protection against small fast surface threats as well as low flying threats such as ASMs.
                  Naturally with the addition of a regular fuse programming unit on the mount the regular 3AP munitions can also be used.
                  Yup. Both MM and MN use it as a CIWS.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                    Yup. Both MM and MN use it as a CIWS.
                    A Close in Weapon System ( CIWS ) is a point Defence system used typically to hit fast moving targets that have penetrated outer defences of fleets or individual craft. The calibres of CIWS do not exceed 20mm in gatling mounts and can reach 30mm in single or dual mounts. The 76mm ROF maximum 120rpm with reloads after a few hundred rounds for the Mark 3 would be too slow as a CIWS weapon. The CIWS is designed to lock on to incoming tragets and with auto fire to continue firing until it's radar sees no target expending thousands of rounds if need be. The 76mm is a big hitter at range given its ammunition types of DART, SAP, and PF types to deal with Aircraft and incoming missiles.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                      Suffice it to say if we want a capability of using a 76mm OTO-Melara integrated with a SELEX FCS system AND use latest ammunition types including DART then we must Change to at least 76mm SR. The guns cost around 2m usd or less depending on the number ordered . We would need 6 plus 1 for training. The exchanged guns could be refurbished and upgraded where possible for sale or fitting two to the MRV with two 30mm in CIWS roles.
                      Be careful when using FI for costs, the most recent large order for SR guns was for 13 by Israel to re-equip some of its existing fleet and the new corvettes being built in Germany. The unit cost was estimated to be nearly $8m.

                      The basic SR mount allows for use of the 3AP programmable fusing and in future the VULCANO extended range/guided munition.

                      To use the DART then either the Strales kit or a separate FCS radar such as a Selex NA30S, Thales STIR or the Saab CEROS. The advantage of the separate FCS is that they have EO systems integrated and that the can be used to control other system if needed. But to use effectively the DART munition it is also necessary that the vessel is equipped with a X-band radar to detect and track fast small targets to hand off to the SR guns system. All this doubles the installation cost above the basic SR mount.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                        A Close in Weapon System ( CIWS ) is a point Defence system used typically to hit fast moving targets that have penetrated outer defences of fleets or individual craft. The calibres of CIWS do not exceed 20mm in gatling mounts and can reach 30mm in single or dual mounts. The 76mm ROF maximum 120rpm with reloads after a few hundred rounds for the Mark 3 would be too slow as a CIWS weapon. The CIWS is designed to lock on to incoming tragets and with auto fire to continue firing until it's radar sees no target expending thousands of rounds if need be. The 76mm is a big hitter at range given its ammunition types of DART, SAP, and PF types to deal with Aircraft and incoming missiles.
                        The Thales Goalkeeper is a 30mm Gatling guns, also the Russians have used 30mm for their CIWS weapons for decades.

                        The claim by Leonardo is that the 76mm is an effective CIWS because;
                        (a) it can engage at a longer range and thus has a greater firing time.
                        (b) only one hit from a DART projectile is enough to destroy any known ASM. That for some of the larger and newer ASM systems it would require multiple hits from a 20mm projectile even a depleted Uranium round (which many countries can not or do not want to use).
                        (c) due to the semi-active radar guidance combined with the programmable proximity fusing that it requires a maximum of 3 DART to ensure the destruction of any target.

                        Also 2 major navies, the French and Italian have declared the 76mm system as a CIWS.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                          Be careful when using FI for costs, the most recent large order for SR guns was for 13 by Israel to re-equip some of its existing fleet and the new corvettes being built in Germany. The unit cost was estimated to be nearly $8m.

                          The basic SR mount allows for use of the 3AP programmable fusing and in future the VULCANO extended range/guided munition.

                          To use the DART then either the Strales kit or a separate FCS radar such as a Selex NA30S, Thales STIR or the Saab CEROS. The advantage of the separate FCS is that they have EO systems integrated and that the can be used to control other system if needed. But to use effectively the DART munition it is also necessary that the vessel is equipped with a X-band radar to detect and track fast small targets to hand off to the SR guns system. All this doubles the installation cost above the basic SR mount.
                          There are S-Band radars that can do gunfire control like TRS-4D, NS-100 and NS-200.

                          Comment


                          • Comparing the Phalanx and OTO Melara 76mm/DART combination is interesting.

                            The Phalanx system takes 100rds to destroy a target, it has a drum capacity of 989rds, this allows for around 10 engagements. Not to be unfair to the Phalanx it should be compared to the Sovraporte version as it has the same limitation on re-loading. The Sovraporte has a capacity of 38rds and Leonardo claim it needs 3rds to destroy a target so that would allow for 12-13 engagements.

                            While 100rds from the Phalanx might sounds like a lot of metal in the air and that it could be assumed that this will ensure the destruction of any target. But the flight time of the projectiles must be considered, with a range of 3500m and a initial muzzle velcoity of 1100m/s it takes just over 3 seconds for the projectiles to reach where the target was predicted to be. The target may have changed course as it nears its target vessel and at the same time in addition to normal dispersion the projectiles will be effected by wind and gusts. So it may take a number of bursts to ensure the destruction of the target.

                            For the OTO-Melara system the rounds are guided so they are semi-actively steered towards the target. Plus they do not need to impact the target as their proximity fuse means they only have to get close enough for the warhead to destroy the target.

                            But the Phalanx might have an advantage in the minimum engagement distance as the DART system will require some time to acquire the projectile and determine its trajectory. Although this will be fast it is likely to be beyond the minimum engagement distance of the Phalanx.

                            Reloading both is similar with the exception that the drum of the Phalanx must first be emptied of the empty and un-fired cases. Therefore it could be that to reload the Sovraporte is faster.

                            An engagement with a Phalanx would cost upwards of $3000, an engagement with the 76mm DART is likely to be 20-30 times that. But compared to the cost of a RAM missile this is still cheap as a RAM missile is around $1m each.

                            Comment


                            • But 100 round burst from Phalanx looks and sounds much more impressive than 1-3 rounds from 76mm!
                              'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                              'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                              Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                              He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                              http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
                                There are S-Band radars that can do gunfire control like TRS-4D, NS-100 and NS-200.
                                Yes that is possible but the reason for the X-band is that this is much better for small fast targets. An X-band radar give a shorter range but it gives a much higher resolution meaning items like missiles or small boats are easier to identify.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X