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  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    I could see such a system as a benefit particularly if our vessels are to be deployed on anti-piracy patrol as envisioned by the new MOD. I would like to see more about the "steerable platform" if that is a substitution for a stabilised gun system, you wouldn't want it to bottom out on a steep rolling turn. The other question, is the maximum elevation at +60 degrees OK in AA roles.
    The gun is fully stabilised; the "steerable" platform is on the side for the sensor unit which can be controlled separately from the weapon. So the sensor can do a search pattern with the need to move the entire system.

    The +60deg does seem to be a bit low but then again if you have a missile that does a climb and dive profile before hitting its target then the climb phase would be the optimum time to engage as this would be when it presents the biggest target. What is the limit on the Rhinos today?

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    • If you have to go greater than 60 degrees, its probably too late? MLG27 at work.

      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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      • [QUOTE=na grohmiti;478204]If you have to go greater than 60 degrees, its probably too late? MLG27 at work.

        Not sure where that comes from. The old AA doctrine established an effective ceiling for engaging approaching aerial targets. it was based on engaging a closing aerial target with 20 seconds of gunfire before the gun reached 70 degrees of elevation. At a restriction of 60 degrees elevation you would have to engage at longer range to get your twenty seconds.

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        • The "Old AA doctrine" probably comes from a time of flinging 4 inch shells at propeller powered aircraft. After the Falklands everything changed with regards to AA doctrine. A layered approach is now the idea. You either hit the aircraft at max range, hit the incoming missile with CIWS or equivalent, and once it gets inside those layer, try to distract the incoming missile with chaff or electronic decoys.
          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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          • The original Rheinmetall S2 mount for the Rh-202 was limited to 55deg later increased to 60deg.
            As with most things it is copy and paste what went before.

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            • [QUOTE=ancientmariner;478222]
              Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
              If you have to go greater than 60 degrees, its probably too late? MLG27 at work.

              Not sure where that comes from. The old AA doctrine established an effective ceiling for engaging approaching aerial targets. it was based on engaging a closing aerial target with 20 seconds of gunfire before the gun reached 70 degrees of elevation. At a restriction of 60 degrees elevation you would have to engage at longer range to get your twenty seconds.
              A missile such as the AGM-84 Harpoon has a closing speed of 240m/s which puts the 20 second distance at 4,800m well beyond the effective range of 20-30mm shells of around 2000-2500m. However at 1,800m the Harpoon can climb to performe pop-up attack which would present a good target for something like the MLG-27 or SeaSnake-30.

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              • [QUOTE=EUFighter;478226]
                Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

                A missile such as the AGM-84 Harpoon has a closing speed of 240m/s which puts the 20 second distance at 4,800m well beyond the effective range of 20-30mm shells of around 2000-2500m. However at 1,800m the Harpoon can climb to performe pop-up attack which would present a good target for something like the MLG-27 or SeaSnake-30.
                Neither of these are CIWS.

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                • [QUOTE=Graylion;478227]
                  Originally posted by EUFighter View Post

                  Neither of these are CIWS.
                  Please read the first paragraph of the attachment to post #329.

                  While the SeaSnake family if not a standalone CIWS in the way that the Phalanx is, they can be the effector of even one which can engage ASM missiles.
                  Not all CIWS has all the sensors mounted on the RWS. The Millennium Gun system is an example where the direction is from other ship mounted sensors via a CMS.

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                  • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                    While a lot of naval RWS seem to be going with one of the Bushmaster series as their gun system this does has limitations as a CIWS due to their low rate of fire. So as it is unlikely that the DoD would agreed to a couple of Phalanx systems the newest offering from Rheinmetall could be an option for the replacement of the Rh202s.

                    They have developed from their original MLG-27 system now a family of lighter weight RWS system from 20mm to 30mm. IMHO the Sea Snake 30 would make a good replacement as it has a high rate of fire for a 30mm system.

                    https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/...nake_30_LR.pdf
                    As you know the Goalkeeper 30mm is CIWS with 7-barrel Gatling mode. The Dutch used it extensively on the anti-piracy patrols off the Horn of Africa. Rate of fire is important, and the range at which it can commence on an acquired target. It is interesting to note that almost half of aerial attacks on ships were destroyed by mainly 20mm gunfire in WW11.However the target speed then was 400 knots and today attacking speeds could be supersonic. We need a system that is packaged to acquire, lock on , engage, destroy,.and look for the next target. We must be able to engage at not less than 3,500 metres. Sea Snake looks interesting and some practical data/demo on the 30mm version would be useful.

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                    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                      As you know the Goalkeeper 30mm is CIWS with 7-barrel Gatling mode. The Dutch used it extensively on the anti-piracy patrols off the Horn of Africa. Rate of fire is important, and the range at which it can commence on an acquired target. It is interesting to note that almost half of aerial attacks on ships were destroyed by mainly 20mm gunfire in WW11.However the target speed then was 400 knots and today attacking speeds could be supersonic. We need a system that is packaged to acquire, lock on , engage, destroy,.and look for the next target. We must be able to engage at not less than 3,500 metres. Sea Snake looks interesting and some practical data/demo on the 30mm version would be useful.
                      The Goalkeeper is a fine system due in a large part to its local FCS being basically a STIR EO. This makes it very flexible which it showed off the Horn of Africa. Interestingly one of the key upgrades that comes with the -1b kit for the Phalanx is a new EO system to allow it to better engage small agile fast boats.

                      While rate of fire is a good indicator, the time to get that rate is interesting. Gatling guns like that used on the Goalkeeper and Phalanx rely on a motor spining the barrels up to speed. While this may seem fast it is apparently slower than the revolver action used by the Rheinmetall KCE-30 or BK-27. So even if their rate per minute is lower they can have more weight downrange in a 1s burst.

                      But not to be forgotten for CIWS application is rate at which these systems can train and elevate. The Phalanx in the -1b configuration has rates of 115deg/s, while the Goalkeeper is slightly slower at 80deg/s for elevation and 100des/s for train. The SeaSnake only gives a single value of 90deg/s.

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                      • [QUOTE=EUFighter;478228]
                        Originally posted by Graylion View Post

                        Please read the first paragraph of the attachment to post #329.

                        While the SeaSnake family if not a standalone CIWS in the way that the Phalanx is, they can be the effector of even one which can engage ASM missiles.
                        Not all CIWS has all the sensors mounted on the RWS. The Millennium Gun system is an example where the direction is from other ship mounted sensors via a CMS.
                        Interesting. And I would not compare SeaSnake with Millennium. But I can see that it would make an interesting system for the NS together with a decent radar.

                        Edit: Holey Moley ROF!
                        Last edited by Graylion; 22 July 2020, 22:10.

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                        • What is interesting about the revolver cannons is their controllability, they can fire single shot, or any number of different burst rates. AFAIK a gatling gun cannot do a single round shot but I could be wrong.

                          Another interesting point if the shells, they can fire similar sabot rounds as their gatling cousins but they also have the programmable round like ABM and AHEAD. It has been reported that Rheinmetall is looking into an AHEAH round for the 30mm like what is available already for the 35mm.

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                          • There is a very interesting article in the July issue of DTR magazine on 30mm ABM. Although the focus is on what weapon/ammo will be fitted to the next Australian IFV it does give a good insight to the differences in the two ABM ammo that the Rheinmetall Mk30-2 cannon and the ATK Bushmaster Mk44 will be offered with. Both of these 30mm weapons could be a possible solution for a Rhino replacement.

                            https://defencetechnologyreview.part...20/flipbook/52

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                            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              There is a very interesting article in the July issue of DTR magazine on 30mm ABM. Although the focus is on what weapon/ammo will be fitted to the next Australian IFV it does give a good insight to the differences in the two ABM ammo that the Rheinmetall Mk30-2 cannon and the ATK Bushmaster Mk44 will be offered with. Both of these 30mm weapons could be a possible solution for a Rhino replacement.

                              https://defencetechnologyreview.part...20/flipbook/52
                              Particularly if we deploy to east Coast of Africa, we need to replace with 30mm system , ideally with AD ammunition and programmable Air Burst rounds with tracer. don't see why we couldn't try out the Cavalry's 30mm system--even on board--load one of the vehicles.

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                              • Is there Hitfist available in a naval mount? It's a fine gun if there is.
                                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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