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  • Originally posted by ropebag View Post
    While this is true, aircraft, or anything else, that can't do the job regardless of how many there are of them, are only a creative way of burning money and resources that could be better used elsewhere.

    The guns and their radars were of no more use in an AD role than waving an AK in the air while wearing a blindfold. Every bloke working on them or supporting them, and every penny spent on them after the early 1990's was pissed away as surely as if it had been thrown on a fire.

    The world moved on, and guns went from being 'value' to being 'cheap rubber dog shit' not far off overnight. Laser guided bombs and ECM put paid to them as surely as firearms put paid to the longbow.
    It is all very simple, if you follow today's conflicts , to identify all round Defensive measures needed to give your side a half chance . The CDA scenario was relevant to most countries up to the advent of stand off weapons and extended range delivery systems. After that time speed of target acquisition and ability to deliver a long range response became the norm. There was still an ongoing space for mobile twin and multibarrel high rate of fire AA systems but they needed much better lock on and tracking systems which in turn became the progenitor of the integrated CIWS system. Multipurpose missile systems now give the possibility to deal with AA, at better ranges, and also anti-ship, and striking land targets within 70km range. The Polish Government are buying NSM for CDA purposes and now as pointed out there is the advent of a CAMM development.
    There is a need to keep all systems mobile, as is endemic with Navies, so our land based systems must be vehicle compatible to ensure availability when and where required with it's tracking system.
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 12 May 2017, 15:24.

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    • Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
      You have 8 aircraft. You reduce it to 4. No matter how more capable the 4 new aircraft are, they still cannot be in 8 places at once.
      The 8 Alouettes could carry think it was max 5 troops were limited at night and weather. The 6 AW139s are night capable, much less weather restricted and can carry 8 troops.

      Yes there was 5 Dauphins capable of carry 8-10 troops as well. But the serviceability issues were well documented.

      Originally posted by ropebag View Post
      The guns and their radars were of no more use in an AD role than waving an AK in the air while wearing a blindfold. Every bloke working on them or supporting them, and every penny spent on them after the early 1990's was pissed away as surely as if it had been thrown on a fire.

      The world moved on, and guns went from being 'value' to being 'cheap rubber dog shit' not far off overnight. Laser guided bombs and ECM put paid to them as surely as firearms put paid to the longbow.
      The EL70s and Flycatchers were OK for what they were purchased for, to replace the manually layed L70 (it brought DF AAA from the 1930s into probably the 1960s (was it world class far from it but still a huge jump). What was their role? Well the were purchased as a direct result of 9/11 so there were never intented by the DF to stop the Blackjacks or B2s of the world.

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      • Originally posted by danno View Post
        New batch of missiles ordered for the BA-RN;

        https://militarynews.co.uk/2017/05/0...-british-army/
        CAMM is something we should take a look at.

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        • Originally posted by Graylion View Post
          CAMM is something we should take a look at.
          Maybe after it is actually operational anywhere

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          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            Maybe after it is actually operational anywhere
            Ordered by UK, NZ and Brazil. Should not be that long.

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            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
              Maybe after it is actually operational anywhere
              Maybe when they sell it on in 30 years time we can pick it up!
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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              • Originally posted by spider View Post
                Where do the empty shells go...couldn't see any being ejected?
                Most naval weapon ( gun ) systems are designed to have shell case recovery systems, especially those 12.7mm and above. The weapon arrangements aboard our vessels is well documented and listed. They range from 7.62mm LMG, 12.7mm HMG, 20mm CRAA aboard all ships, and 57mm (1 ship) 76mm (7 ships) . The 20mm is not as popular with navies now other than in CIWS systems, mid range out to 4km is suited to weapons such as 27mm and 30mm using RWS mounts. The 12.7mm can backup the latter especially in twin mounts to increase stopping power. Decent gun systems need a DARDO configuration with guided ammunition or else provide a missile system.

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                • Naval Ship Defence

                  Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  Most naval weapon ( gun ) systems are designed to have shell case recovery systems, especially those 12.7mm and above. The weapon arrangements aboard our vessels is well documented and listed. They range from 7.62mm LMG, 12.7mm HMG, 20mm CRAA aboard all ships, and 57mm (1 ship) 76mm (7 ships) . The 20mm is not as popular with navies now other than in CIWS systems, mid range out to 4km is suited to weapons such as 27mm and 30mm using RWS mounts. The 12.7mm can backup the latter especially in twin mounts to increase stopping power. Decent gun systems need a DARDO configuration with guided ammunition or else provide a missile system.
                  Ships in hot or challenged areas need to defend themselves by adequate response within inner ranges from 5km inwards. The principle threats are from air coupled with missile launches and attacks by fast surface craft. Ships so threatened need either a suitable range of anti multi threat missiles or a smart gunnery system which can cover all three functions and additionally allow for shore bombardment with extended range munitions. The popular 76mm system currently in use has features which cover all these aspects at costs around 2m USD per ship with additional costs for ammo and outer area detection radar for first contact. The gun has an integrated beam riding radar to deal with missile and aircraft. The ship would also have a decoy system as a first response. The pundits say that the Decoy system coupled with the smart gunnery system and ammunition is a cheaper option than missile systems.

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                  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                    Ships in hot or challenged areas need to defend themselves by adequate response within inner ranges from 5km inwards. The principle threats are from air coupled with missile launches and attacks by fast surface craft. Ships so threatened need either a suitable range of anti multi threat missiles or a smart gunnery system which can cover all three functions and additionally allow for shore bombardment with extended range munitions. The popular 76mm system currently in use has features which cover all these aspects at costs around 2m USD per ship with additional costs for ammo and outer area detection radar for first contact. The gun has an integrated beam riding radar to deal with missile and aircraft. The ship would also have a decoy system as a first response. The pundits say that the Decoy system coupled with the smart gunnery system and ammunition is a cheaper option than missile systems.
                    Although I agree with many of the above points the first thing that needs to be fitted is a decent sensor suite and Combat Management System, There needs to be an active sensor such as a modern AESA radar which is coupled with an EO sensors and some ESM. Time is essential, a typical ASM like a Harpoon or Exocet will travel at around 240m/s, this gives around 60 seconds before the ship would be hit. In this 60 seconds, the threat has to be detected, interrogated, identified, classified and then engaged. That more time you can win the better as the best weapon system is useless unless it has time to be used. Remember any incoming ASM must be destroyed at least 500m from the vessel to have a good chance of avoiding debris causing damage which can be worse than if the missile had hit.

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                    • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                      Although I agree with many of the above points the first thing that needs to be fitted is a decent sensor suite and Combat Management System, There needs to be an active sensor such as a modern AESA radar which is coupled with an EO sensors and some ESM. Time is essential, a typical ASM like a Harpoon or Exocet will travel at around 240m/s, this gives around 60 seconds before the ship would be hit. In this 60 seconds, the threat has to be detected, interrogated, identified, classified and then engaged. That more time you can win the better as the best weapon system is useless unless it has time to be used. Remember any incoming ASM must be destroyed at least 500m from the vessel to have a good chance of avoiding debris causing damage which can be worse than if the missile had hit.
                      Absolutely sensors are critical. A missile launched at 240m/s with 60 secs flight time will have been fired 14.4km away, hopefully the A/C would have been tracked and even engaged by time of launch. In gunnery terms 60 secs is a LOT of ammunition.

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                      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                        Absolutely sensors are critical. A missile launched at 240m/s with 60 secs flight time will have been fired 14.4km away, hopefully the A/C would have been tracked and even engaged by time of launch. In gunnery terms 60 secs is a LOT of ammunition.
                        I would be more worried about a land launched weapon, or one launched from a vessel close inshore. Given the radar clutter of the land background these are difficult to detect and that will only happen if the ship is already at action stations. Remember not all modern ASM need a target lock before launch, they only need an approximate direction and distance, so can be fired OTH.

                        A Phalanx has a effective range between 500m and 3500m, so about 12 seconds to fire, a 35mm Millennium gun pushes this out to 5000m and 19 seconds.

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                        • States of Alert

                          Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                          I would be more worried about a land launched weapon, or one launched from a vessel close inshore. Given the radar clutter of the land background these are difficult to detect and that will only happen if the ship is already at action stations. Remember not all modern ASM need a target lock before launch, they only need an approximate direction and distance, so can be fired OTH.

                          A Phalanx has a effective range between 500m and 3500m, so about 12 seconds to fire, a 35mm Millennium gun pushes this out to 5000m and 19 seconds.
                          Ships on patrol always have their relevant sensors closed up and searching, mostly passively. It's a zero sums game, if you haven't the outfit you shouldn't be there. Be ready and expect to be challenged. First response before maneuver is to launch a salvo of decoys and then follow with a response to incoming.

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                          • Thales together with the Indian company BEL have been developing the Pharos Multi Target Tracking Radar a Fire Control radar that can turn the Oto 76mm into a CIWS. From what I can tell it some modification to the gun, control system and dual feed system. It functions by providing a guide beam for the 76mm DART round.
                            https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/pharo...tracking-radar

                            This could be part of an upgrade for the P60s to give them better active protection. Of course a 2/3d search radar and CMS would need also to be part of the package. Not to be forgotten would also are the passive defences; ESM and decoys.

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                            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                              Thales together with the Indian company BEL have been developing the Pharos Multi Target Tracking Radar a Fire Control radar that can turn the Oto 76mm into a CIWS. From what I can tell it some modification to the gun, control system and dual feed system. It functions by providing a guide beam for the 76mm DART round.
                              https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/pharo...tracking-radar

                              This could be part of an upgrade for the P60s to give them better active protection. Of course a 2/3d search radar and CMS would need also to be part of the package. Not to be forgotten would also are the passive defences; ESM and decoys.
                              The OTO 76mm that we have is probably two Marks behind the OTO Strales SR. The rate of fire of the two Super Rapido guns is 120 rounds pm.
                              The gun capable of firing DART ammo ie the 76mm Strales SR also has a TX Antenna inserted in it's cupola. The question therefore is, can the old gun be redesigned to increase ROF to 120 pm. and can a TX Antenna be fitted and associated FCS's. Better we fit also at least one 30mm Auto on the Centerline for aft arcs.

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                              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                                The OTO 76mm that we have is probably two Marks behind the OTO Strales SR. The rate of fire of the two Super Rapido guns is 120 rounds pm.
                                The gun capable of firing DART ammo ie the 76mm Strales SR also has a TX Antenna inserted in it's cupola. The question therefore is, can the old gun be redesigned to increase ROF to 120 pm. and can a TX Antenna be fitted and associated FCS's. Better we fit also at least one 30mm Auto on the Centerline for aft arcs.
                                The Pharos MTTR takes the place of the TX antenna on the Strales; the MTTR provides the beam for the DART round. As for the rate of fire of the "Compact" version is 85rpm. This is the same variant fitted to the Holland class OPV, which has been critised for a lack of CIWS and for which Thales sees as a potential user.
                                Last edited by EUFighter; 26 August 2018, 18:16.

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