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  • The notion of firing "warning shots" at errant subs is the same as the gunner on a Panhard in Lebanon, back in the day deciding to fire a warning shot at the Israeli tank, instead of the 90mm HEAT that it got.
    If you fire a warning shot, you have to be ready for an escalation.
    In Anti Submarine Warfare, the locating Active Sonar Ping is enough to get the message to subs.

    There is a level of escalation here, and firing shots is, same as with a rifle, the absolute last level. You better have ASROC or Torpedo, otherwise you could find yourself escalating to a level you cannot answer.
    For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
      The notion of firing "warning shots" at errant subs is the same as the gunner on a Panhard in Lebanon, back in the day deciding to fire a warning shot at the Israeli tank, instead of the 90mm HEAT that it got.
      If you fire a warning shot, you have to be ready for an escalation.
      In Anti Submarine Warfare, the locating Active Sonar Ping is enough to get the message to subs.

      There is a level of escalation here, and firing shots is, same as with a rifle, the absolute last level. You better have ASROC or Torpedo, otherwise you could find yourself escalating to a level you cannot answer.
      AFAIK the sonar "ping" of WW2 movies is something only to be used in Hollywood. Most modern active sonars operate more like radar and at a frequency that humans cannot hear. There would have to be agreed sonar protocols that sonar operators would be able to use as "warning shots".

      As for escalation that is the reason for the Mk32 tubes, so 12.75inch lightweight torpedoes can be fired. Although that raises the question should anti-torpedo measures be installed?

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      • The active ping is very much there, just not like in "The Cruel Sea". Active ping is directional and tells the subs sensor operator that they have been detected.
        Indeed it is not uncommon for, during wargames, once detected, the hunted will suffer the sound of celebratory music played down the system, for the sensor operator to hear.

        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
          The active ping is very much there, just not like in "The Cruel Sea". Active ping is directional and tells the subs sensor operator that they have been detected.
          Indeed it is not uncommon for, during wargames, once detected, the hunted will suffer the sound of celebratory music played down the system, for the sensor operator to hear.

          So the Elbonian sub knows that they have been detected by active sonar, so how do they know that they are requested to surface?
          They might say "OK, the Irish know we are here but we continue to do what we want".
          They might be sitting next to the interconnector to France and we would rather they did not.
          Is there a world wide agreed protocol that if a sub is targeted by active sonar that this is a request for them to surface?
          (I know the same could be said of dropping explosives over the side.)

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          • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
            AFAIK the sonar "ping" of WW2 movies is something only to be used in Hollywood. Most modern active sonars operate more like radar and at a frequency that humans cannot hear. There would have to be agreed sonar protocols that sonar operators would be able to use as "warning shots".

            As for escalation that is the reason for the Mk32 tubes, so 12.75inch lightweight torpedoes can be fired. Although that raises the question should anti-torpedo measures be installed?
            In present day ASW it is more usual to use passive sonar to listen for intruders and often the particular noise that a particular submarine might make. The returns are analysed by the ships library of known acoustic noises and can identify submarines and surface ships at a distance of many miles. You can then bang off a standard message to HQ,and eventually DFA can pass the list of identified Subs to the Russian or other Embassy. They will then know that we know.

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            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
              In present day ASW it is more usual to use passive sonar to listen for intruders and often the particular noise that a particular submarine might make. The returns are analysed by the ships library of known acoustic noises and can identify submarines and surface ships at a distance of many miles. You can then bang off a standard message to HQ,and eventually DFA can pass the list of identified Subs to the Russian or other Embassy. They will then know that we know.
              That still does not answer the question, "how do you fire a warning shot to a sub, that will force them to surface and stop"?

              An acoustic library is one of the most prized secrets that a navy can have, one that takes many years to build and large efforts to maintain. It is usually shared with allies but as we are a non-aligned neutral country we might only get a very small library. So while a USN vessel might be able to identify not only every sub type and even some individual subs this will not be the case for us.

              Here is the scenario.

              A few weeks ago a small Irish fishing boat 50nm west of Achill Island was pulled under by a submarine. We suspect the sub was from Elbonia, DFA has called the Elbonian embassy to complain, they insist that it was not their sub.
              Today you are skipper of one of our newly upgraded K60 class, another fishing boat has been pulled under near you. ICG has rescued all the crew and you have a suspect sub on your sonar. DFA has again called the Elbonian embassy and have received the same reply "it wasn't us". What options have you?

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              • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                That still does not answer the question, "how do you fire a warning shot to a sub, that will force them to surface and stop"?

                An acoustic library is one of the most prized secrets that a navy can have, one that takes many years to build and large efforts to maintain. It is usually shared with allies but as we are a non-aligned neutral country we might only get a very small library. So while a USN vessel might be able to identify not only every sub type and even some individual subs this will not be the case for us.

                Here is the scenario.

                A few weeks ago a small Irish fishing boat 50nm west of Achill Island was pulled under by a submarine. We suspect the sub was from Elbonia, DFA has called the Elbonian embassy to complain, they insist that it was not their sub.
                Today you are skipper of one of our newly upgraded K60 class, another fishing boat has been pulled under near you. ICG has rescued all the crew and you have a suspect sub on your sonar. DFA has again called the Elbonian embassy and have received the same reply "it wasn't us". What options have you?
                First, no commander has authority to start WW111. Second advise fishing vessels of the danger in the area, of which by now they are aware. Thirdly, toss over a couple of acoustic grenades to let the submarine know your there. lastly inform relevant embassy by DFA that one of their craft may be in danger with a trawler wrapped around their vessel and will they require you to stand by under SOLAS/UNCLOS, or may you proceed.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  First, no commander has authority to start WW111. Second advise fishing vessels of the danger in the area, of which by now they are aware. Thirdly, toss over a couple of acoustic grenades to let the submarine know your there. lastly inform relevant embassy by DFA that one of their craft may be in danger with a trawler wrapped around their vessel and will they require you to stand by under SOLAS/UNCLOS, or may you proceed.
                  Thankfully Elbonia is not Russia and that the incidents of subs causing the loss of fishing vessels is not so common as it once was. It was just to see what the options could be. If there is a surface vessel there are plenty of options but under sea not so many.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                    Thankfully Elbonia is not Russia and that the incidents of subs causing the loss of fishing vessels is not so common as it once was. It was just to see what the options could be. If there is a surface vessel there are plenty of options but under sea not so many.
                    Were they Russian probably much closer to home

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                    • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                      Thankfully Elbonia is not Russia and that the incidents of subs causing the loss of fishing vessels is not so common as it once was. It was just to see what the options could be. If there is a surface vessel there are plenty of options but under sea not so many.
                      Lads I think you are putting too much faith in Elbonia

                      It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                      It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                      It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                      It was the year everything changed.

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                      • https://www.independent.ie/videos/pa...-39450891.html

                        In this recent video, it shows the various weapons used on the P60 class being fired.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by pilatus View Post
                          https://www.independent.ie/videos/pa...-39450891.html

                          In this recent video, it shows the various weapons used on the P60 class being fired.
                          In recent times in the Gulf of Hormuz the US Marines have provided cover for small FB attack with marine manned Javelin units and strapped down AV's with 25mm cannon. Our brethren have similar capability within PDF.

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                          • a bit like the Swedish versus that Russian crawler submarine; start with small charges and then move up to actual depth charges, when the Russians do their usual trick of denying it.

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                            • This seems like a good idea.


                              The deFNder is based on a standardized open architecture allowing integration with Combat Management System (CMS), external sensors as well as third party equipment. The open architecture makes it possible to control several deFNder stations from one single (or more) C2 system and opens the door to collaborative combat of networked deFNder.
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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