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  1. #251
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Attachment 7661

    Sorry about that boss!
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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  3. #252
    Lt Colonel Buck's Avatar
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    That's still not working
    I knew a simple soldier boy.....
    Who grinned at life in empty joy,
    Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
    And whistled early with the lark.

    In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
    With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
    He put a bullet through his brain.
    And no one spoke of him again.

    You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
    Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
    Sneak home and pray you'll never know
    The hell where youth and laughter go.

  4. #253
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  5. #254
    Non Temetis Messor The real Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
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    Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

  6. #255
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  7. #256
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    Not exactly the right spot for all of this but anyway...

    [Below relates to my other post regards ‘MOU/defence agreements’ – France and Sweden/Norway/Finland and, previous comments regards the Defence Forces as the nation’s last resort insurance policy etc.]

    ‘Principles’:
    Equipment Attainment (the FUN stuff, obviously!):
    - Second hand & with known 2nd uses.
    - Preference for medium (or small) sized example items for maximum deployment
    - Adopt lesser capable items if, results in items with secondary/more flexible use.

    Personnel:
    Re-balance of DF - transfer some Army nos. to greater Air Corps and Naval components.
    Re-review (again) RDF – for a conscious, middle course approach – 1st line Reserve (ex-PDF), and 2nd line Reserve of 2 x classes – all intakes initially as Class ‘2.2’ non-integrated - old FCA approach – purposely in greater numbers (in a localised GAA style) i.e. explicit intention to have ‘large’ numbers up to basic ‘trained’ private level (2 star) and involving no (take home) issue of uniform...and circa 1-3 months after attaining 2 stars – issued (take home) uniforms. Post 3-star...stream members (voluntarily) into ‘integrated’ (replacement/supplement PDF nos.) class 2.1 reserve OR, for lesser onus of commitment, standards, more local centre opportunities and lesser gratuity, to remain within class 2.2.

    ‘Mitty-ensemble’!, equipment suggestions..
    (in the format of: What – Who - Why)
    [In order of priority]

    Air/anti-air
    -ADATS AA missiles (&anti-armour) – Canada/Philipines – Canada stock recently in storage, similar operation to PDF’s RBS70 but, longer range, bigger warhead, secondary use.
    -Mistral AA missile – France and many others – unlike RBS70 is ‘Fire&Forget’ and guided by heat
    -AA-8 AA missile – Ukraine & many others – small & fired from jets, helicopters & vehicles

    Ground equipment
    -Radar onto existing towed 40mm, as on single/twin 40mm towed guns & CV90/40AA – Sweden, Argentina etc. – near CIWS anti-air/missile, cheaper vs. missiles
    -76mm wheeled self-propelled AA – long est. commercial offers – naval service, long range, cheaper
    -130mm artillery (& anti-armour) – Finland/Iran/Ukraine/India/Eygpt? etc.etc.- inherent long range (50% better than existing, best-range PDF), 90% heavier than PDF’s longest range available shell
    - DORA self propelled artillery truck – Czcech Rep./ Cyprus etc. – wheeled, stored(?), convertible (to 130mm? Etc.)
    -Roiikat armoured car – South Africa – replaced AML, wheeled, 76mm with Naval service, stored

    Air Corps
    -Continue standard on P&W Turbo-prop’ engines but, also use 2nd standard on Lycoming OI prop engines – omnipresent, commercial, cheaper to buy, operate, spares
    -Re-purchase SF-260W (but with uprated 300hp Lycoming) – many – cheap, good trainers & range
    -Re-purchase Cessna – (Lycoming series) – omnipresent – very cheap, good training, useful
    -Britten-Norman Islander (or Tri-Lander!?) (Lycoming only) – many – cheap, range, used for Garda
    -Z8/(Frelon) (lease&later get new type) SAR& Army models Helicopter – China – P&W engines, cheaper, previous French user, excuse to train with France
    -CASA CN -290 Maritime – Mexico/ Ecudor/US? Spain? Etc. – extg. Similar CN235 in Air Corps, but better range, and P&W engines?
    - CASA CN-235 transport – many – CN235 in Air Corps, good as niche use e.g. UN small missions
    :- [IF to ‘obtain’ jets (judgment call for two (vs.one) engines unless extreme other reason (e.g.v/stol harrier/yak) as over ocean deployment more dangerous/arduous, & too few aircraft/personnel to loose one example]
    -2 seat Alpha Jet trainers– France/ Germany/Portugal/ltd.UK/etc. – two engines, wide use, cheap, stored, close users [or 2-seat trainer – Sweden – two engines, many stored? Close user, cheap?]
    -2&1-seat Rafale Jet - France – two engines, close user [Euro’ user advert for them & Atlantic ‘presence’]
    -135mm rocket – Sweden & India(?) – big warhead, from small aircraft, better range, guidance potential

    Bases
    -New airbase at Shannon airport (co-op/tandem with Naval air)
    - New air station at Cork airport, some Knock (split air assets)

    Naval Service
    - bigger numbers in Naval Reserve (and make ties with boating clubs and sail schools if it helps)
    - obtain FACs, name as ‘ ¼ boats’? – many nations – ‘¼ boats’ crew c.12 pers’, short-period ship substitute /training/ relay/ picket/inshore patrols, 2½- 3 day w’end for Reserves, inboard(diesel)&outboard engines? 40kts sprint?, big mix weapons, 4-8 at one per harbour/naval reserve unit or, per existing vessel.
    -Keep existing 8 ship size (excl. proposed 4-8no. ¼ boats), ensure future orders to carry AW139/149 type heli, & hanger- (& Ki-8 emergency landing?)
    - possible 130mm main gun on later ships, - e.g. Rus130mm/old Swedish 120/old Finland naval 120mm/155mm bandkannon? -
    -make-do ‘CIWS’, triple 20mmx139 – France, Germany etc.etc. – cheap, stored, close users, for land/sea/air use
    -400mm torpedo – Sweden/India/ etc.? – misc. Ranges/warheads, small-med, aircraft potential
    -Crotale AA (& anti-ship) – France/Saudi Arabia etc.etc. – cheap(ish), widespread, small like ADATS/AA-8, land & sea use, close user
    -Use time share on French Mistral vessel to UN duties?
    – cross excuse to train re: Ki-8/Frelon, Alpha & Rafale jets, Crotale & 20mm systems
    -RBS15 anti-ship – Sweden/Croatia etc. – med. size warhead, aircraft and land vehicles (& sea?)
    - crew exchanges Sweden (and Scandinavian), France

    Bases
    -Naval air base at Shannon (& station at Cork) Airports (with CASA295, naval AW139/149 & Ki-8)
    - locked ‘bunkers’ at ports for FAC type/ ¼ boats Reserve crafts

    Land
    -HOT3 anti-tank missile – Spain etc.etc. – long range, cheap, stored, works roughly like RBS70
    -K3 MICV – Korea – with 40mm as PDF Naval&Army, close users(re calibre), amphibious, light, narrow,
    -K1 LMG – Korea, Phillipines, Columbia? – cheap, potential to make Steyr compatible [as new & Euro user]
    -K21? 20mm (v.short) – Korea, this &/or hybrid with Australia effort for Steyr - in use, ‘force multiplier’
    -Denel MG151 20mm short – previous SA/ Portugal/France – superior to HMG, not much bigger,
    -Denel 20mm rifle – SA/India or Pakistan/? – very long range, swaps to 0.5 etc. calibres. With MG151
    -Denel 20mm bull pup? – no user – very short version of MG151 ammo, possible future hybrid mix with K21/Australian similar effort?
    - retain the FN rifles
    - re-commission AMLs – home/UN base protection, some UN patrol, possible remote use (point, decoy, mine hazard point vehicle..)

    Equipment Packages...
    – DORAs with 130mm artillery, 76mmAA/ 2x40mmAA with ADATSx4 (&2-4Crotale/AA-8/135mmrockets/chaff etc.?)
    - 40mm and 20mm calibre families use across two to three PDF branches
    - France/Sweden/Korea as source countries

    ‘Financing’ Packages...
    - limited e.g. French/Swedish, access to airports, air base, ports for: use of French air/sea equipment (& Scandinavian)
    - training opportunities & exchanges for: use of French air/sea equipment (& Scandinavians)
    - Advertisement for them as new &, Euro’ users for: deals on Korean items & French (Rafale lease)
    - Any surplus Irish Rail Locos/ trains/beef exchange for: k-8, ki8, k3s, K1, 130mm etc. (Korea as intermediary re 130mms?)
    - Coilte trees/tree products, Bord Na Mona (power stn. &/or domestic fuel) & training for DORA & 130mm
    - Tie use of many items into UN missions
    - Increase military spending on UN missions but decreases overseas aid spending pro-rata
    - Staged payments
    - support supplier nations in overseas UN missions, and maybe EU missions
    - crew exchange, or ship replacement when supplier nation caught short e.g. Naval vessel take over fishery patrols for Swedish or Norwegian ships broken down, undermanned, or chasing subs etc....

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  9. #257
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Did we just find oil?
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  10. #258
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    Europe is bankrupt!!!!! There are no freebies any more. UK sold CVRT range to Baltic NATO ally and just sold 30 year old Bedford Saxon 'apc' to UKRAINE!!!!!
    In other words if you are a sovereign independent nation either put up or shut up!
    Sarsfield

  11. #259
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    just sold 30 year old Bedford Saxon 'apc' to UKRAINE!!!!!
    Suckers!!!!!
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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  13. #260
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    Last edited by Graylion; 5th October 2019 at 01:40.

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  15. #261
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    https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/boxer...hicle-details/

    Very interesting, and detailed article (with loads of photos) of the Boxer vehicle family, it's various modules and how bloody useful the whole thing will be. For example, if vehicle needs maintenance, the asset in total need not go to the workshop, it can be swapped onto a different vehicle.
    All the modules can be transported by DROPS and ISO containers are also available for storage or shipping of them.
    I'm converted.
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
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  17. #262
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    ....I wonder how much 80 will cost?
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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  19. #263
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    ....I wonder how much 80 will cost?
    Well Lithuania ordered 88 Boxers for $441m, 84 fitted with Samson 30mm RWS each of which is around $1m each. So that would mean about $320M for 80 vehicles without RWS.

  20. #264
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    Well Lithuania ordered 88 Boxers for $441m, 84 fitted with Samson 30mm RWS each of which is around $1m each. So that would mean about $320M for 80 vehicles without RWS.
    If only we were able to tack on a order with a large neighbor for 80-100 units....
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

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  22. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    If only we were able to tack on a order with a large neighbor for 80-100 units....
    Why?

    The unit price is about double that of either the Piranha V or the Patria AMV which come in at around $2-2.5m each. Yes it is a nice trick to be able to swap out a mission module but that costs weight. Weight that means the entire powertrain has to be heavier etc and all that come with that.
    Poland has a large number of AMV variants in production with very competitive pricing. Danmark, Spain and Romania have ordered large numbers of Piranha V's which would also be an opportunity for an add-on order.

    One thing that I miss about many of the current generation of vehicles is there lack of amphibious capability. Yes the last conflicts were in arid environments but not all future might be. If there is one thing that most armies learnt during the WW2 was that having a vehicle which can cross a river on its own gives a great tactical advantage. Both the AMV and Piranha V have this still as an option, the Boxer not.

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  24. #266
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    I dont think the Piiranha V is amphibious. While crossing a river is a great advantage I think wheeled vehicles have a major issue in getting out of rivers as wheels struggle for grip on steep banks. But saying that if its inherent to a vehicle its a bonus, but I wouldnt rule out a vehicle if it didnt have it.

  25. #267
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    It reminds me of the Tiger tank; changing the gearbox required lifting the turret off the hull so wherever the Tiger went, the special crane had to go, along with it's FAMO prime movers,etc,etc. So, this Boxer appears to need to go into operational service with it's circus train following close behind...

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  27. #268
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
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    According to MOWAG the Piranha V can be fitted with an amphibious kit:
    • Seawater cooling system
    • Closable louvres of engine grills
    • Water propulsion 2 propellers
    • Steering control 2 twin rudders
    • Trim van and snorkel system

    However I would suspect that this is limited to a maximum GVW less than the 30t available. So if you do not pack a load of modular armour and other equipment it should be amphibious. Limit is likely around 25t or maybe a bit less.

    MOWAG_Piranha_5_eng.pdf

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  29. #269
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    Anything about the Piranha 3H?
    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
    German 2: Private? I am a general!
    German 1: That is the bad news.

  30. #270
    Lieutenant EUFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Anything about the Piranha 3H?
    There was an amphibious option but none were ever ordered. It would have had a trim vane, 2 water propellers, snorkel etc.

  31. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by EUFighter View Post
    There was an amphibious option but none were ever ordered. It would have had a trim vane, 2 water propellers, snorkel etc.
    Did the Spanish marines order the amphibious version 3C?
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a%C3%B1ola.JPG
    Last edited by sofa; 15th May 2020 at 20:49.

  32. #272
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    fn-piranha[1].jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by sofa View Post
    Did the Spanish marines order the amphibious version 3C?
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a%C3%B1ola.JPG
    Romania__Piranha_III.jpg

    Yes, the Spanish and Brazilian Marines took the option on their PIIIC's, also so did the Romanian Army. The easy way to know other than the propellers is the trim vane on the front.
    Remember the PIIIC is very different to the PIIIH, and the C variant came out much later, Swiss numbering system.
    Last edited by EUFighter; 15th May 2020 at 21:12.

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  34. #273
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    The Romanians were used to their previous generation of Russian APCs being amphibious as standard and preparation for river crossing involving very little more than raising the water vane and engaging the propeller drive.

  35. #274
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    It wasn't just APC's like the BTR family but almost everything armoured was amphibious: BMP family, MT-LB family even the 2S1 Gvozdika 122mm SPG. In fact river crossing was so important for the Russians even their tanks were equipped to have some crossing ability. The tube seen on the turrets of T-64 & T-72 tanks is nothing more than a snorkel to allow then to ford deeper rivers. And all had to do with the Russian strategy of pre-emptive attack as a defence rather than wait like in 1941. Then rivers become barriers and help the defenders (NATO) and so way must be found to cross quickly.

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  37. #275
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    Can we do Piranha V wih Samson RWS with 40mm CTA and MMP?

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