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  1. #351
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Realistically the best case would be a RHIB with shelter anything else an the NSR would require specialists. It would mean that they could get weekly experience of boardings and RHIB ops (that they could be exposed to at sea on an OPV) on a weekly basis. They could also get more use and therefore deliver better VFM.

    The Customs cutters were about €1M each of memory serves there isn’t a hope the NSR will get 4 they would be lucky to get 1!

    I seem to remember in one of the parades through Dublin there was a NS RHIB with a GPMG Mount.
    https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...l=1#post130516

    Armed - tick
    Achievable for NSR - tick
    Useful for training and local ops - tick
    Useful for training and support of NS locally - tick
    Affordable - tick
    Useful for training for ops on board OPVs - tick

    All weather ?
    Range wise for patrolling a wider area ?
    Training of NSR officers for ops on board OPVs?
    Last edited by DeV; 3rd July 2020 at 16:29.

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  3. #352
    C/S CTU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...l=1#post130516

    Armed - tick
    Achievable for NSR - tick
    Useful for training and local ops - tick
    Useful for training and support of NS locally - tick
    Affordable - tick
    Useful for training for ops on board OPVs - tick

    All weather ?
    Range wise for patrolling a wider area ?
    Training of NSR officers for ops on board OPVs?
    What about something like this?
    Its what the US Navy use as a force protection boat.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-thumbnail.jpg
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  5. #353
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...l=1#post130516

    Armed - tick
    Achievable for NSR - tick
    Useful for training and local ops - tick
    Useful for training and support of NS locally - tick
    Affordable - tick
    Useful for training for ops on board OPVs - tick

    All weather ?
    Range wise for patrolling a wider area ?
    Training of NSR officers for ops on board OPVs?
    Waste of money tick
    amended that for you
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  7. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTU View Post
    What about something like this?
    Its what the US Navy use as a force protection boat.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...-thumbnail.jpg
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  9. #355
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    amended that for you
    Not think it offers more capabilities than the retired launches?

  10. #356
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Not think it offers more capabilities than the retired launches?
    Nope......having served with ASM where in the old days where the concept of having their own STYs and launches was akin to being a uniformed yacht club in certain circles and indeed the Naval Service perception of the reserve was the same , the recent loss of their non standardized naval equipment afloat has actually led to a greater level of acceptance thats the NSR is no longer that which I have mentioned above and is a integral part of the Naval Service as opposed to being a tangental entity.

    Should the NS formally declare its intention that it wants to the NSR to operate in a harbour police role, then the NSR is no longer compatible as an actual reserve. The Inland Fisheries and indeed the customs already operate vessels to undertake inshore operations , if there is an extra level of protection , the NS provide it with CPVs .

    Unless the NS wants to go down the road the RN takes with declared and recognized training squadrons , which btw are not about reservists in the main, a spend on this type of craft without an actual operational role is to say the least wasteful .
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  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Nope......having served with ASM where in the old days where the concept of having their own STYs and launches was akin to being a uniformed yacht club in certain circles and indeed the Naval Service perception of the reserve was the same , the recent loss of their non standardized naval equipment afloat has actually led to a greater level of acceptance thats the NSR is no longer that which I have mentioned above and is a integral part of the Naval Service as opposed to being a tangental entity.

    Should the NS formally declare its intention that it wants to the NSR to operate in a harbour police role, then the NSR is no longer compatible as an actual reserve. The Inland Fisheries and indeed the customs already operate vessels to undertake inshore operations , if there is an extra level of protection , the NS provide it with CPVs .

    Unless the NS wants to go down the road the RN takes with declared and recognized training squadrons , which btw are not about reservists in the main, a spend on this type of craft without an actual operational role is to say the least wasteful .
    The NSR is descriptive of the current local volunteers. If they are to be fully marinised and made familiar with the sea environment then they must have craft that will allow them to acquire skills and confidence. Such a training vessel per unit should be capable of doing that with accent on Seamanship, Navigation, safety. etc. There is no need for boarding or belligerent intervention as that can be acquired aboard OPV's. The craft should be big enough to experience a couple of watches at sea and possibly overnight in local harbours.

  13. #358
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    The NSR is descriptive of the current local volunteers. If they are to be fully marinised and made familiar with the sea environment then they must have craft that will allow them to acquire skills and confidence. Such a training vessel per unit should be capable of doing that with accent on Seamanship, Navigation, safety. etc. There is no need for boarding or belligerent intervention as that can be acquired aboard OPV's. The craft should be big enough to experience a couple of watches at sea and possibly overnight in local harbours.
    As none of the training centres are beyond a couple of hours drive from Haulbowline, weekends in training can be focused there and use all the facilities available to the naval service and indeed joining a ship for the training activities outlined above which would be far more beneficial .
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  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    As none of the training centres are beyond a couple of hours drive from Haulbowline, weekends in training can be focused there and use all the facilities available to the naval service and indeed joining a ship for the training activities outlined above which would be far more beneficial .
    Possible for Cork, Limerick, and Waterford but Dublin Unit is at a distance disadvantage. If the naval base was to be the training center then two craft for initial training and hands on experience would fit the requirement. I would prefer the HOME locations so that the NSR would gain a sense of self sufficiency and become less dependent.

  15. #360
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Possible for Cork, Limerick, and Waterford but Dublin Unit is at a distance disadvantage. If the naval base was to be the training center then two craft for initial training and hands on experience would fit the requirement. I would prefer the HOME locations so that the NSR would gain a sense of self sufficiency and become less dependent.
    Where it should actually be the reverse for any reserve that it would operate under the wing of its parent force in as close proximity as possible having direct access to the assets and not having to have its own resources, especially in a island the size of Ireland and again with a such a diminutive force such as the NSR which again has probably less that 200 active members.
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  17. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Where it should actually be the reverse for any reserve that it would operate under the wing of its parent force in as close proximity as possible having direct access to the assets and not having to have its own resources, especially in a island the size of Ireland and again with a such a diminutive force such as the NSR which again has probably less that 200 active members.
    There is logic in what you say but these naval units since their foundation have been left to their own devices in military barracks and "camped" annually at Fort Meagher and were kept far from the sea and ships. Their parade nights are mostly in barracks. They need a viable foundation in the form of a craft with a near shore capability.If a green civilian can turn up at a hire marina and take away a 42ft cruiser with GPS and with 8 berths for a week after 1 hours instruction, I have no hesitation in extending that opportunity to the reserve. The permanent cadres can introduce them to GPS and radar and in a short time let them self drive on a specified route and time line.

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  19. #362
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    There is logic in what you say but these naval units since their foundation have been left to their own devices in military barracks and "camped" annually at Fort Meagher and were kept far from the sea and ships. Their parade nights are mostly in barracks. They need a viable foundation in the form of a craft with a near shore capability.If a green civilian can turn up at a hire marina and take away a 42ft cruiser with GPS and with 8 berths for a week after 1 hours instruction, I have no hesitation in extending that opportunity to the reserve. The permanent cadres can introduce them to GPS and radar and in a short time let them self drive on a specified route and time line.
    Its was exactly this non uniformity in equipment that lead to such a divergence between reserve and regular forces over the years. The same logic as you offer was asked when the Panhard fleet was withdrawn from the cavalry orbat, the question being why it wasn't handed over to the Reserve.

    In hindsight it was the right move as it would have caused massive logistical issues and would have created tow vastly opposing Cavalry tiers both vying for scare resources.

    Parade nights are now a thing of the past with most centres concentrating on weekend activities thus making it more viable and even productive to decamp to Haulbowline to utilize facilities there . Rhib training and even seaman ship applicable to reservists can as easily be taught on a ship along side, especially if the likes of Eithne is going to be tied up indefinitely, given she could actually potentially accommodate students in a very realistic ships environment
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  21. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Its was exactly this non uniformity in equipment that lead to such a divergence between reserve and regular forces over the years. The same logic as you offer was asked when the Panhard fleet was withdrawn from the cavalry orbat, the question being why it wasn't handed over to the Reserve.

    In hindsight it was the right move as it would have caused massive logistical issues and would have created tow vastly opposing Cavalry tiers both vying for scare resources.

    Parade nights are now a thing of the past with most centres concentrating on weekend activities thus making it more viable and even productive to decamp to Haulbowline to utilize facilities there . Rhib training and even seaman ship applicable to reservists can as easily be taught on a ship along side, especially if the likes of Eithne is going to be tied up indefinitely, given she could actually potentially accommodate students in a very realistic ships environment
    I don't know what the Army does with it's reserves but teaching seamanship and boat handling is not a divergence from making salt water sailors. The SM in the recent decades were given a collection of donated or acquired motorcraft . These are now withdrawn and same class replacements are required to establish a norm of waterborne training. The alongside training vessel if staffed would certainly add to skills for regular service personnel and fit in NSR as available. As you know there is NO establishment for training staff in units and NSR are self training.Having NSR and Regulars using same facilities may or may not be viable. There are a lot routines in the Defence Forces that are a thing of the past, all associated with making the PDF less flexible and less deployable at larger units scale. I am concerned that ships can be crewed at the intended standard and that the NSR contributes to the effort.

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  23. #364
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    These are now withdrawn and same class replacements are required to establish a norm of waterborne training.
    in your opinion.

    I beg to differ as those in the NS on a seamanship course get through the basics without ever having to use small boats for experience and the practial experiece required uch as line and anchor handling launch ships boats, Rhib training, steering ticket can only be carried out on a ship borne environment. There is no crossover between small pleasure craft seaman ship and ops on OPVs.


    I am concerned that ships can be crewed at the intended standard and that the NSR contributes to the effort.
    As am I but diverging from actual the actual requirement of the training for a simple O/Sea by send him down the river on a half decker is not going to given him anything other than a dose of sea sickness.
    All the rope work etc is class room based, the NS doesn't need to provide instructors out of hours as most senior NSR guys now have the qualifications to teach the required skills, all the NS do is provide the facility.
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  24. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    in your opinion.

    I beg to differ as those in the NS on a seamanship course get through the basics without ever having to use small boats for experience and the practial experiece required uch as line and anchor handling launch ships boats, Rhib training, steering ticket can only be carried out on a ship borne environment. There is no crossover between small pleasure craft seaman ship and ops on OPVs.




    As am I but diverging from actual the actual requirement of the training for a simple O/Sea by send him down the river on a half decker is not going to given him anything other than a dose of sea sickness.
    All the rope work etc is class room based, the NS doesn't need to provide instructors out of hours as most senior NSR guys now have the qualifications to teach the required skills, all the NS do is provide the facility.
    You diverge and mix up regular training with Reservist training. On one hand you have full time recruits who undergo about 3 months continuous training to prepare them for the Naval Branches and is as you say class room based but goes on to include common water safety training , firefighting , then Branch training, followed by posting to ships for 90% of their on-the-job training, a vital part of a sailor's acquisition of professional skills and endurance at sea.
    The Reservists on the other hand have low intensity casual training with little sea life. A naval Craft of 20m+ with full navigation gear, able to operate occasionally out of sight of land, and with it's integrated RHIB, would build up skills in any unit . Half-decker is your description but that is not what is needed.
    The 4 remaining NSR units should be able to train initially at their home units and be assigned to ships as convenient to build up seatime experience.

  25. #366
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    The Reservists on the other hand have low intensity casual training with little sea life.
    If you want them to be able to fill gaps in seagoing appointments they need to be trained in exactly the same fashion as their Naval Service counterparts. The safety related courses are mandatory and without these , you can't fill the gaps. The time you perceive better spent in small boats would be better allocated to getting the required training done to get them to sea.

    Our reserves should no longer be viewed as
    Reservists on the other hand have low intensity casual training with little sea life.
    . They need to be able to mirror the skill set of the person they are replacing or at least be officially recorded as under training .

    Reservists in ASM never even saw Naval Vessels nevermind trained or ecvn served aboard in a practical capacity until the Re org in 2005, the amount of sea going experience that was garnered between this and 2008/09 was never known before across all ranks in NSR with guys even going on Foreign trips.

    Ask any reservist where the feel their skill set is and is it appropriate to their role and its a positive response, yes its great to have qualified coxns to man Rhibs at local maritime events, a qualification that can be used at sea, but the prefered option is fill a berth on a naval vessel for a few weeks at a time, thinks I could only have dreamed of when I was in ASM.
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  27. #367
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    If you want them to be able to fill gaps in seagoing appointments they need to be trained in exactly the same fashion as their Naval Service counterparts. The safety related courses are mandatory and without these , you can't fill the gaps. The time you perceive better spent in small boats would be better allocated to getting the required training done to get them to sea.

    Our reserves should no longer be viewed as . They need to be able to mirror the skill set of the person they are replacing or at least be officially recorded as under training .

    Reservists in ASM never even saw Naval Vessels nevermind trained or ecvn served aboard in a practical capacity until the Re org in 2005, the amount of sea going experience that was garnered between this and 2008/09 was never known before across all ranks in NSR with guys even going on Foreign trips.

    Ask any reservist where the feel their skill set is and is it appropriate to their role and its a positive response, yes its great to have qualified coxns to man Rhibs at local maritime events, a qualification that can be used at sea, but the prefered option is fill a berth on a naval vessel for a few weeks at a time, thinks I could only have dreamed of when I was in ASM.
    It isn’t realistic to train NSR personnel to be interchangeable in all aspects to their NS counterpart to the same degree or experience. They is not to say that they can’t be trained to exactly the same standard is many aspects of the training.

    NSR already complete the required mandatory PST and DCFF (and I assume first aid) courses prior to going to sea. These are exactly the same as the NS courses.

    The NSR is definitely more seagoing focused (and has to be as that is what the NS needs).

    Personally I think the money should go to RHIBs for NSR which they will use when at sea on OPVs while also providing experience, training and operational use locally.

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  29. #368
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancientmariner View Post
    You diverge and mix up regular training with Reservist training. On one hand you have full time recruits who undergo about 3 months continuous training to prepare them for the Naval Branches and is as you say class room based but goes on to include common water safety training , firefighting , then Branch training, followed by posting to ships for 90% of their on-the-job training, a vital part of a sailor's acquisition of professional skills and endurance at sea.
    The Reservists on the other hand have low intensity casual training with little sea life. A naval Craft of 20m+ with full navigation gear, able to operate occasionally out of sight of land, and with it's integrated RHIB, would build up skills in any unit . Half-decker is your description but that is not what is needed.
    The 4 remaining NSR units should be able to train initially at their home units and be assigned to ships as convenient to build up seatime experience.
    NSR recruits afaik are required to go to sea on an OPV as part of their O/Sea and/or A/Sea course(s)

  30. #369
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    It isn’t realistic to train NSR personnel to be interchangeable in all aspects to their NS counterpart to the same degree or experience. They is not to say that they can’t be trained to exactly the same standard is many aspects of the training.
    My comments focus on the executive branch as the other divisions are absolutely non compatible with small boat training and again a lot of their training is class room based.

    A/Tel did explain in another thread where Communications personnel in the reserve wouldn't have the experience to operate the systems on board ship , nor possibly the clearance level required..and mechs... the less said about them the better
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  31. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    NSR recruits afaik are required to go to sea on an OPV as part of their O/Sea and/or A/Sea course(s)
    NSR recruits are advanced to OS after two weeks recruit training and a number of weekends - similar to the AR. The training for the most part wouldn't look a whole lot different to the AR with perhaps 80% plus commonality with their recruit course. Lots of drill, weapons handling and the obligatory steyr shoot. Some naval specific work is mixed in but it's nothing beyond some basic familiarisation lectures.

    To be advanced to AB, the requirements are the filling of a task book containing requisite knowledge and skills to be accepted as proficient. Some of these can be completed with the unit but some obviously need to be completed at sea.

    Thus, the contemporary NSR OS cannot advance to AB without spending at least two weeks at sea to get steering ticket etc.

    (Now in R5 there is no specific requirement for advancement and it's down to the determination of the unit CO but in practice its the above).
    Last edited by Auldsod; 7th July 2020 at 13:45.

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  33. #371
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auldsod View Post
    NSR recruits are advanced to OS after two weeks recruit training and a number of weekends - similar to the AR. The training for the most part wouldn't look a whole lot different to the AR with perhaps 80% plus commonality with their recruit course. Lots of drill, weapons handling and the obligatory steyr shoot. Some naval specific work is mixed in but it's nothing beyond some basic familiarisation lectures.

    To be advanced to AB, the requirements are the filling of a task book containing requisite knowledge and skills to be accepted as proficient. Some of these can be completed with the unit but some obviously need to be completed at sea.

    Thus, the contemporary NSR OS cannot advance to AB without spending at least two weeks at sea to get steering ticket etc.

    (Now in R5 there is no specific requirement for advancement and it's down to the determination of the unit CO but in practice its the above).
    So you don't really need a boat for familiarisation ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    So you don't really need a boat for familiarisation ...
    Not to get to AB but then again there is a lot more to being part of an NSR unit than making AB.

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    So, there's no NSR engineering set up? If a former ERA or electrician wants to offer his services to the NSR, he won't be entertained?

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  37. #374
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    I actually don't know what happens if a former PDF joins the NSR so I can't comment. Obviously the common sense approach would be for them to retain their branch.

    I can confirm that anyone I've ever met (who were never in the PDF) in the organistation were all Seaman's branch BUT some of those who were in for quite a while initially may have had a different branch but were forced to change.

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    It's a sad state of affairs when civil defence has better boats than the NSR. We had 30 to 40 regular attendees in limerick when I was part of it but the equipment provided by the navy never matched the level of dedication shown by the people of the nsr who gave their time freely. It's time to equip it adequately or get rid of it altogether.

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