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  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    NMCI has another 15 years at least until Bovis PPP is up for renewal. Its strength lies that is in the heart of a working harbour, not buried in Bishopstown, as things used to be.
    I don't know why you see the continued expansion of the port as a threat to it or the navy.
    Given the figures I heard regard drop out rates for commercial cadets during placement over the last year or so maybe being next to a working port might be a bonus rather than a bad thing.

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    • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
      Given the figures I heard regard drop out rates for commercial cadets during placement over the last year or so maybe being next to a working port might be a bonus rather than a bad thing.
      Any chance of bigger NS cadet classes to improve that situation?

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      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        Any chance of bigger NS cadet classes to improve that situation?
        Think at least 1 did move over, most I heard about dropped out of the area altogether.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
          NMCI has another 15 years at least until Bovis PPP is up for renewal. Its strength lies that is in the heart of a working harbour, not buried in Bishopstown, as things used to be.
          I don't know why you see the continued expansion of the port as a threat to it or the navy.
          If you look at Cork Port Review leading to the piecemeal development at Ringaskiddy it is clear that the ball has been dropped. They are moving from City quays 1.276 k to a nascent berthage of about .485k with planned building work in hand and yet to be started. The current berthage was to manage 3 ships of 2000teu alongside. That is laughable as medium Ships have 5000 teu while larger vessels of post-Panamax and New-Panamax are up to 10,000teu's and beyond. The intention to increase berthage on the current berth footprint is in filling Ringaskiddy bay and moving traffic closer to Haulbowline Island and the College.

          The planned positions for increased berthage are Oyster Bank, beside Maritime College and Naval base, and Curlane Bank South of Spike Island that may include a bridge link to Spike from the Haulbowline access road with years of infill and construction and of course a busy Amenity area. They should have developed the East side of the Harbour with ready access to deep water and a bare fore shore.
          Last edited by ancientmariner; 16 June 2020, 20:08.

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          • I'm not sure where you are getting the Oyster bank and Curlane bank plans from, but these were alternative options given to Ringaskiddy redevelopment. They were ruled out on a number of engineering and environmental grounds. The East of the harbour suffers from a glut of underwater cables and outflows, as well as a very poor road infastructure. The R630 is already in bits from the volume of traffic just to the refinery (60 trucks an hour, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year on average). The decommissioning of the older Aghada generating station will see the site used for Battery storage to support the grid coming from the newer Aghada station, the BGE power station next door to the Refinery, and the Wind turbines in Crocane.
            No matter what infastructure you provide for Container ships, you'll not see anything near 10000 TEU in Cork. We don't have the demand for ships of that size, while we continue to serve large feeder container ships to other Irish Ports.
            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
              I'm not sure where you are getting the Oyster bank and Curlane bank plans from, but these were alternative options given to Ringaskiddy redevelopment. They were ruled out on a number of engineering and environmental grounds. The East of the harbour suffers from a glut of underwater cables and outflows, as well as a very poor road infastructure. The R630 is already in bits from the volume of traffic just to the refinery (60 trucks an hour, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year on average). The decommissioning of the older Aghada generating station will see the site used for Battery storage to support the grid coming from the newer Aghada station, the BGE power station next door to the Refinery, and the Wind turbines in Crocane.
              No matter what infastructure you provide for Container ships, you'll not see anything near 10000 TEU in Cork. We don't have the demand for ships of that size, while we continue to serve large feeder container ships to other Irish Ports.
              Oyster Bank area is NOT ruled out as the east-west leg of a container dog-legged berth will reside on part of it, and it is shown abutting NMCI grounds. I don't want to get into power stations as Electric Ireland have committed to importing all the replacement power caused by current and future closures. Shannon and wind will be it and the rest comes through connectors old and new to come on line. Any trouble in UK and Europe we will be goosed.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                Read a paper submitted to USNI about small Navies and a Need for a balanced force. The submission sees a need for forces at sea to act as a deterrent and to have an ability to keep sea lanes open. The agreed tasks are in the areas of Surface, Air, Submarine, and MCM with a range of platforms to undertake defensive tasks. We are the ultimate example of need in that we are totally surrounded by sea and heavily focused in location and capability. To be successful smaller navies need to pool training and tasks with another to maintain efforts . In our case, because knowledge was embedded in few personnel with access to a few platforms, when people and ships retired the Navy was literally destructured . Our political efforts since then was to put ships on the water with no particular capability, except for one, later de-classified.
                It can and should be achieved by insisting on following the Mission come what may and that is the Duty of Command.
                As a former user, I would suggest we use the P31 for training Naval Reserves. Our neighbour is using two ships for alongside training. Find a secure Berth around Fords Wharf or the Harbour Commissioners wharf and man the ship with a cadre with sufficient knowledge to run her systems, maintain the Cork Company's administration, and train the enlisted volunteers in all shipboard equipments and protocols appropriate to their Branches. They should maintain the ship and learn over time to be experienced enough to be assigned to seagoing ships as useful ships crew. They could shift the Cork Unit HQ from Collins Barracks to the ship. In ordinary circumstances she would need to be on shore power and have access to services such as FW, waste disposal, and fuel . She is a self made academy covering all Branches.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  As a former user, I would suggest we use the P31 for training Naval Reserves. Our neighbour is using two ships for alongside training. Find a secure Berth around Fords Wharf or the Harbour Commissioners wharf and man the ship with a cadre with sufficient knowledge to run her systems, maintain the Cork Company's administration, and train the enlisted volunteers in all shipboard equipments and protocols appropriate to their Branches. They should maintain the ship and learn over time to be experienced enough to be assigned to seagoing ships as useful ships crew. They could shift the Cork Unit HQ from Collins Barracks to the ship. In ordinary circumstances she would need to be on shore power and have access to services such as FW, waste disposal, and fuel . She is a self made academy covering all Branches.
                  Her current location is a pretty secure berth. The Cork NSR unit is based in Haulbowline.
                  For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                    Her current location is a pretty secure berth. The Cork NSR unit is based in Haulbowline.
                    In that case the ship would need to be at the base as she needs to be secure enough to leave her short manned or even unmanned overnight, unless NSR watches are running. An Open berth in Cork would be too vulnerable and raise potential security problems.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                      In that case the ship would need to be at the base as she needs to be secure enough to leave her short manned or even unmanned overnight, unless NSR watches are running. An Open berth in Cork would be too vulnerable and raise potential security problems.
                      Then you are dealing with a ISPS Code situation. While the rules may not apply to Naval vessels, they do apply to the quayside. If you are going to a permanent berth, then it is easy to secure access. Every marina in the country can manage it, all you need is a Gate at the end of the gangway. Custom House Quay (north) is ideal in this regard, but the imminent redevelopment may change this. When Tivoli is downgraded from a working container port, it's quays are also easily secured, as the gates are already there. The Old Terminal is ideal for shore accommodation.
                      Ideally, you need a dedicated naval berth which, when required, can also accommodate visiting naval vessels, and give them the security they desire and deserve. While the Cruiseliner berth can handle the larger ships safely, it would be nice to see the smaller European and Non European ships back up the quays again. Not seen anything interesting since HMAS ANZAC about 12 years ago.
                      Tivoli Could do all this.
                      For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                        Then you are dealing with a ISPS Code situation. While the rules may not apply to Naval vessels, they do apply to the quayside. If you are going to a permanent berth, then it is easy to secure access. Every marina in the country can manage it, all you need is a Gate at the end of the gangway. Custom House Quay (north) is ideal in this regard, but the imminent redevelopment may change this. When Tivoli is downgraded from a working container port, it's quays are also easily secured, as the gates are already there. The Old Terminal is ideal for shore accommodation.
                        Ideally, you need a dedicated naval berth which, when required, can also accommodate visiting naval vessels, and give them the security they desire and deserve. While the Cruiseliner berth can handle the larger ships safely, it would be nice to see the smaller European and Non European ships back up the quays again. Not seen anything interesting since HMAS ANZAC about 12 years ago.
                        Tivoli Could do all this.
                        The ISPS Code was born from the Twin Towers incident in New York and transferred, due impending risk of a similar nature, up to nuclear, to shipping entering port. Security is paramount for ships in open ports. What we would need is a secure Naval only berth that is lockable and/or guardable. The Cork HA are talking about using Tivoli for small coasters when the container cranes are removed. However if the NSR are Haulbowline based then that unit can use an adapted berth there and use any alongside ship assigned to training. It leaves Waterford, Dublin, and Limerick to be sited under similar security for their training craft only.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                          Oyster Bank area is NOT ruled out as the east-west leg of a container dog-legged berth will reside on part of it, and it is shown abutting NMCI grounds. I don't want to get into power stations as Electric Ireland have committed to importing all the replacement power caused by current and future closures. Shannon and wind will be it and the rest comes through connectors old and new to come on line. Any trouble in UK and Europe we will be goosed.
                          In today's Irish Examiner there is released information from the Minister of Housing,Planning Ports, and Local Government about a Master Plan for the Marine Area. The document sets out sectoral objectives and planning policies covering 16 sectors/activities. Among fish, sport, and energy is Defence and SECURITY, and also Ports, Harbours and Shipping. Where are Dept. of Defence and Dept. of Marine? With such conflicts of responsibility I can safely say we will be planned into a corner.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                            In today's Irish Examiner there is released information from the Minister of Housing,Planning Ports, and Local Government about a Master Plan for the Marine Area. The document sets out sectoral objectives and planning policies covering 16 sectors/activities. Among fish, sport, and energy is Defence and SECURITY, and also Ports, Harbours and Shipping. Where are Dept. of Defence and Dept. of Marine? With such conflicts of responsibility I can safely say we will be planned into a corner.
                            Sorry a word reverse jump in the first line--after word Planning delete " Ports".

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                              In today's Irish Examiner there is released information from the Minister of Housing,Planning Ports, and Local Government about a Master Plan for the Marine Area. The document sets out sectoral objectives and planning policies covering 16 sectors/activities. Among fish, sport, and energy is Defence and SECURITY, and also Ports, Harbours and Shipping. Where are Dept. of Defence and Dept. of Marine? With such conflicts of responsibility I can safely say we will be planned into a corner.
                              Do you mean this article;

                              https://www.irishexaminer.com/sponso...-40021070.html

                              It is a small step in the right direction, I do not really care in which department is is as long as it gets done properly. And we have to be happy that "defence and security" have been included.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                                Do you mean this article;

                                https://www.irishexaminer.com/sponso...-40021070.html

                                It is a small step in the right direction, I do not really care in which department is is as long as it gets done properly. And we have to be happy that "defence and security" have been included.
                                What I am finding interesting is this from the draft paper

                                "6.12 Haulbowline Naval Base is of strategic importance to the Naval Service and Ireland given its geographic location. In line with the ongoing investment programme in new ships, there will be a need for future expansion of the Naval Base with the requirement for additional berthage and the development of a dry-dock. Future development in Cork Harbour will need to take cognisance of the unique requirements of the Naval Service."

                                edit, here is the draft paper: https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/def...work_final.pdf
                                Last edited by Graylion; 1 August 2020, 20:40.

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