Irish Military Online is in no way affiliated with the Irish Defence Forces. It is in no way sponsored or endorsed by the Irish Defence Forces or the Irish Government. Opinions expressed by the authors and contributors of this site are not necessarily those of the Defence Forces. If this is your first visit, be sure to
check out the FAQ by clicking the
link above. You have to register
before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,
select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.
I'm also pretty sure an NSR officer would be happy and able to operate the Flags calendar for 2 weeks, even if they have not completed the coffee machine course.
How does one get on this fabled coffee machine course? Is there a badge at the end????
An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost.Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
They are not "taking" shore jobs, they are filling in ashore while the nav qualified officer goes to sea. The reason NSR other ranks are getting so much seatime is because clearly this leave system in place at a time when the navy wasn't struggling with manpower issues no longer happens. They are filling in seamans branch positions at sea up to PO level.
There is a Lieutenant (NS) that has the role of glorified receptionist for FOCNS. I'm sure this officer would prefer to be at sea for two weeks instead of making coffee for the Flags guests. I'm also pretty sure an NSR officer would be happy and able to operate the Flags calendar for 2 weeks, even if they have not completed the coffee machine course.
I am trying to come up with options here. Calling it a crap idea is a tad dismissive.
An army is power. Its entire purpose is to coerce others. This power can not be used carelessly or recklessly. This power can do great harm. We have seen more suffering than any man should ever see, and if there is going to be an end to it, it must be an end that justifies the cost.Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain
We are partially going around circles here but I guess most of us agree that NSR officers have most utility with their units administrating and managing operations of RHIBs (and launches if they come) with further potential for shore duty with the NS if possible?
Duty at sea best reserved for those with prior qualifications. Primarily due to the significant barriers to entry (time mainly) and lack of return on investment from said training even if possible for non qualified officers.
I appreciate @ancientmariner's vast experience on these matters but I don't think you're getting ENS Johny who works in accountants for a living up to full unaccompanied bridge watchkeeping standard with the time involved - 2 weeks a year average.
I am very interested in how the RNR do things though. Much larger and better resourced organisation of course. Their units just seem to be a pool all their individual specialisations into geographical units that don't have an operational purpose (but have craft to assist training). It is notable that they seem to have RNR divers which would require significant training as well some specialisations that are predominantly done by the RNR such as submarine control. I believe most of the RAF Reserve units operate in the same manner. I had a discussion recently with an RAF reservist based in Northern Ireland who is branched in intelligence but his unit is just a generic RAFR squadron.
Yeah if you want to have someone who can potter around the lower harbour all day, now put him on ship launching that boat from a ship in poor weather at night.....thats not a 2 day qualification, thats many weeks if not months of experience under guidence from a senior A/Sea.. and just because he's a senior A/ Sea doesn't make him a good driver.. take it from one who learned the hard way
btw , just because I'm back doesn't mean Covid is finished.
Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
Yeah if you want to have someone who can potter around the lower harbour all day, now put him on ship launching that boat from a ship in poor weather at night.....thats not a 2 day qualification, thats many weeks if not months of experience under guidence from a senior A/Sea.. and just because he's a senior A/ Sea doesn't make him a good driver.. take it from one who learned the hard way
btw , just because I'm back doesn't mean Covid is finished.
Good to have you back anyway.
For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
They are not "taking" shore jobs, they are filling in ashore while the nav qualified officer goes to sea. The reason NSR other ranks are getting so much seatime is because clearly this leave system in place at a time when the navy wasn't struggling with manpower issues no longer happens. They are filling in seamans branch positions at sea up to PO level.
There is a Lieutenant (NS) that has the role of glorified receptionist for FOCNS. I'm sure this officer would prefer to be at sea for two weeks instead of making coffee for the Flags guests. I'm also pretty sure an NSR officer would be happy and able to operate the Flags calendar for 2 weeks, even if they have not completed the coffee machine course.
I am trying to come up with options here. Calling it a crap idea is a tad dismissive.
Options are fine when they do no harm in the long run. The PSO to the Flag is an important job requiring two ability's-- a knowledge of everyday Naval Matters and keeping confidences revealed or overheard. The whole exercise is to take the RESERVE to sea NOT to keep the remainder at sea. Describing an appointment as glorified should be reserved for the Church,Synagogue, or Mosque. I forgot to mention that the alternative to a seagoing reserve is National Service, and if they can be trained so can the current NSR.
Options are fine when they do no harm in the long run. The PSO to the Flag is an important job requiring two ability's-- a knowledge of everyday Naval Matters and keeping confidences revealed or overheard. The whole exercise is to take the RESERVE to sea NOT to keep the remainder at sea. Describing an appointment as glorified should be reserved for the Church,Synagogue, or Mosque. I forgot to mention that the alternative to a seagoing reserve is National Service, and if they can be trained so can the current NSR.
National service is full time. Their training is supervised by professionals. Our reserve, under current rules restricting mandays barely get 14 days paid training any more. (including travel to and from training location).
You cannot train a Reserve Naval officer to do his Permanent equivalent's seagoing job in the current time allotted. However, you could potentially bring him to a minimum qualification if you begin his seagoing training once he completes basic. By the time he reaches Potential officer course, if he has committed years to consistent naval training, then maybe he could manage to hold something akin to the qualification held by those who operate the smaller government owned research vessels. This would at least permit him to assist the watch keeping officer aboard a moving naval vessel in coastal waters. But the training must start the day he finishes basic training, and it must be intensive.
There is no alternative to experience though. Launches and Ribs are nice to operate, but you learn a lot more in the first 5 years literally learning the ropes aboard ship.
For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
Not intended in any way by me to be bashing. But my question stands - is there jobs that a non-professionally qualified NSR Officer could do on a NS OPV - I don’t know the answer hence the question (I do know that there is no way they could get the sea time or qualifications to get a NWC (unless they are working in role as a civvy).
Ok I’ll give it to you in MOWAGS (@truckdriver, help me out if I’m incorrect on anything) - why are there no AR MOWAG drivers?:
Assuming you are a min Pte 3*, pass ITs, manual handling, medical (including eyesight etc), you have a full civvy car licence and are at least 21 years of age
You have to do a min of 4 different driver modules of at least 5 weeks plus a specific number of hours practical driving experience on some vehicles before you will be considered for the APC Crewmans Cse (which is a number of weeks long)
There is nothing to stop reservists doing it if they qualify, get a place on the course and are available
Correct
"Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"
We had same problem in the old days with panhard. No problem getting 4x4 154, but the issues cropped up when they needed to do a truck course. Couldn't be got, either trucks weren't available or instructors were needed elsewhere.
We could do every other car course no problem, except driver. Gunnery we did over 11 weekends and 1 full time week. (plus revision on weekly parade nights). Gunnery Instructor was also readily available to whoever wanted to do it after they completed Gunnery.
The Problem seemed to lie with D/Transport who approved the driving instructors and issued the 154.
Similar happened in the early days of Mowag. APC was an infantry vehicle, infantry driving instructors trained infantry drivers.
When Cav got mowags, suddenly infantry driving instructors couldn't instruct cavalry drivers because Cavalry mowag was not an infantry vehicle.
It's all bullshit.
For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.
Our reserve, under current rules restricting mandays barely get 14 days paid training any more. (including travel to and from training location).
Incorrect!!!!
there is zero restrictions so long as the paperwork is done. About 2 years ago my location used all our allocated mandays, requested more and granted .... twice. I know of someone who did over 100 Mandays last year
The only restrictions insufficient notice and lazy people/people who don’t the process.
We had same problem in the old days with panhard. No problem getting 4x4 154, but the issues cropped up when they needed to do a truck course. Couldn't be got, either trucks weren't available or instructors were needed elsewhere.
We could do every other car course no problem, except driver. Gunnery we did over 11 weekends and 1 full time week. (plus revision on weekly parade nights). Gunnery Instructor was also readily available to whoever wanted to do it after they completed Gunnery.
The Problem seemed to lie with D/Transport who approved the driving instructors and issued the 154.
Similar happened in the early days of Mowag. APC was an infantry vehicle, infantry driving instructors trained infantry drivers.
When Cav got mowags, suddenly infantry driving instructors couldn't instruct cavalry drivers because Cavalry mowag was not an infantry vehicle.
It's all bullshit.
None should
Currently NSR other ranks can help fill that gap (at sea) to a degree
It problem is currently the majority of NSR officers (through no fault of theirs) can’t fill a gap at sea (hence the thread)
Dum te Dum...question would need to be asked if they can't do the job...all bar those who are qualified that is what is their actual appointment as opposed to rank..and why are they needed.
NSR effective strength is probably less than 200 persons and is no doubt top heavy with SNCOs and at least all the SCPO ranks filled, so why do we need 4 x Lt Cdr ranks when realistically one could do the job.
The Slua Muiri role if any one wants to look it up included the use of launches for harbour control, ASM was never a practical naval reserve . NSR has come closer to the roleof being an active naval reseve by fully participating in ships crewing operations so why are they now stepping back and dividing their time needlessly.
The NS don't have super rhibs for pissing about in harbours, so if the NSR is the intended reserve... why do they need them ?...and that auld bollocks about seaman ship experience etc....a week on a OPV of the west coats will give you more experience that puddle jumping in a pleasure craft.
Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
We process personal data about users of our site, through the use of cookies and other technologies, to deliver our services, personalize advertising, and to analyze site activity. We may share certain information about our users with our advertising and analytics partners. For additional details, refer to our Privacy Policy.
By clicking "I AGREE" below, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our personal data processing and cookie practices as described therein. You also acknowledge that this forum may be hosted outside your country and you consent to the collection, storage, and processing of your data in the country where this forum is hosted.
Comment